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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 8 2013, 09:20 PM   #46
Mark_Nguyen
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

I generally see Operations Manager as a needed position on a Starship, but not necessarily a command role. Data was a Lieutenant Commander in that position, probably because he was also the second officer and as such required that rank to hold that position's authority aboard ship (i.e. below Commander Riker). We did see in "All Good Things..." that Data had a rank of Lieutenant (j.g.), most likely because of a costuming error; but what if this actually WAS his rank when he signed on, then for whatever reason Picard saw fit to make him second officer and promoted him two ranks accordingly?

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Old January 8 2013, 09:41 PM   #47
C.E. Evans
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

The only thing is that Data was referred to as "Commander Data" with the lieutenant j.g. pips at the very start.
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Old January 8 2013, 09:57 PM   #48
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

Ahh, right. Well, Picard was confuzzled after being transposed through time. Yeah. That's it. :P

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Old January 8 2013, 10:03 PM   #49
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

Data had been in Starfleet for 30 years. He was at the Academy before everyone else on the bridge, except Picard, was born. The android really deserved a double promotion now and then since the only reason that he wasn't often promoted before his stay on Enterprise was racism.

Not only confuzzeled, but Data could have assumed he had been given a field promotion then and there.
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Old January 9 2013, 11:13 PM   #50
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Voyager didn't use the Maquis to any effect during the show, so I'm not sure why you expected them to in the books.
Yes they did,

Caretaker part 1
caretaker part 2
Parallax
Prime Factors
State of Flux
Learning Curve
Maneuvers
Prototype
Alliances
Dreadnought
Resolutions
Basics part 1
Basics part 2
Worst case Scenario
Random thoughts
Repression
Shattered

your clearly are mistaken there are many episodes that have a main Maquis plot...

This is a big criticism that has no grounds,Voyager had many episodes that revolved around the Maquis but after season 3 its only logical that after 3 years people who hate each other will start to adapt and work together because they are 70 years away from home and lost in an uncharted part of the Galaxy it was only logical.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:40 AM   #51
R. Star
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

jpch wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Voyager didn't use the Maquis to any effect during the show, so I'm not sure why you expected them to in the books.
Yes they did,

Caretaker part 1
caretaker part 2
Parallax
Prime Factors
State of Flux
Learning Curve
Maneuvers
Prototype
Alliances
Dreadnought
Resolutions
Basics part 1
Basics part 2
Worst case Scenario
Random thoughts
Repression
Shattered

your clearly are mistaken there are many episodes that have a main Maquis plot...

This is a big criticism that has no grounds,Voyager had many episodes that revolved around the Maquis but after season 3 its only logical that after 3 years people who hate each other will start to adapt and work together because they are 70 years away from home and lost in an uncharted part of the Galaxy it was only logical.
I think you're mistaking having Maquis characters in an episode for using the Maquis as a plot device.

Caretaker- Did introduce the Maquis accordingly.
Parallax- Minor B plot about them wanting to mutiny. Showed good promise at first I'll admit.
Prime Factors- That was less the Maquis and more the crew being Carey and Tuvok composed half of the people stealing the projector thing to get home.
State of Flux- A Cardassian spy doesn't qualify as a "Maquis" episode
Learning Curve- This episode did remember the Maquis were there and might have a hard time fitting in. I'd have loved to see more of these characters throughout the show.
Maneuvers- This is about a Seska/Chakotay conflict, not the Maquis
Alliances- This episode was about the Kazon and the Trabe. You just had a disgruntled Hogan mouth off at the beginning... so this episode isn't quite Maquis.
Dreadnaught- References the past, but really is just about Torres fixing something
Resolutions- How is this about the Maquis? It's about Janeway and Chakotay being stranded.
Basics- Suder was a fun character and I'm glad they brought him back. One character really doesn't make a Maquis plot though.
Worst Case Scenario- It's kind funny in this one they had to make a fantasy scenario about the Maquis behaving like they should have been!
Random Thoughts- A Torres episode about her being angry and a thought nazi culture. Not the Maquis.
Repression- Again, it's funny how it takes alien mind control to make the Maquis act like Maquis.
Shattered- This was more an episode about Janeway and Chakotay's relationship and how it evolved over the seven years.

So sure, the Maquis are around and even referenced on ocassion, but there's not much about them. Out of those episodes you listed I'd say three of them were -about- the Maquis and two of those were holodeck/mind control influences.

They pretty much just behave like assimilated Starfleet crewmembers for the most part. On occasion it'll be brought up there's an issue or problem, but it's forgotten about by next week and never mentioned again. So there is plenty of grounds to say that Voyager squandered it's Maquis plot.

You can strand a team of Navy SEALS and an Al-Quaida terrorist cell on the same island, facing the same problems, that doesn't mean they should work together well.

While I'm not saying the Maquis should've been trying to rebel every single episode we should've seen way more cliquedoms, and differences in ideologies and methods of how to get home. That would have been some great drama if they used it properly.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:46 AM   #52
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

I've said it before - what could've been cool is if the renegade Maquis were the CO of Voyager and the idealistic first officer was forced to follow him/her. Voyager gets stranded, her original CO gets killed, but not before putting the Maquis commander (as the most experienced officer, etc.) in charge. DIdn't mind what we've got, but there's no better way of putting an intra-crew conflict front and center but to have the lead character having to fight it every day.

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Old January 10 2013, 12:50 AM   #53
R. Star
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
I've said it before - what could've been cool is if the renegade Maquis were the CO of Voyager and the idealistic first officer was forced to follow him/her. Voyager gets stranded, her original CO gets killed, but not before putting the Maquis commander (as the most experienced officer, etc.) in charge. DIdn't mind what we've got, but there's no better way of putting an intra-crew conflict together but to have the lead character having to fight it every day.

Mark
That would've been interesting. Part of the problem was, Chakotay, who was the Maquis lead, spent most of the series being Janeway's yes-man. So naturally it only followed that the rest of the off screen Maquis were being brushed aside, used only for cleaning plasma conduits and building shuttles. If he behaved like he did during Caretaker the whole run, he might've been able to pull that off.
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Old January 10 2013, 12:53 AM   #54
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

Caretaker part 1
caretaker part 2
... Those two are redundant, it's introducing the Maquis so of course it's about the Maquis, episodes are reflections of the pilot and this is the pilot that sets the tone of the rest of the episodes, and really you're so short on proof you have to list this episode twice? Denied, Denied.

Parallax... B'Elanna breaks Carey's naose and gets a promotion. Chakotay claims that the Maquis need representaion i n the command structure and that his peoeple are not going to be content just swabbing the decks and preparing meals... The crews aren't integrated "yet" it was a fun period that lasted ONE EPISODE. Approved.

Prime Factors... This is a Seska Episode. You might as well say that every episode focussing on Tom or Tuvok were also Maquis episodes because they used to be Maquis. Be9isdes in the end it was Tuvok who took the bullet and not B'Elanna being manipulated by Seska claiming that the Maquis way of getting things done is better... Which would be all Maquissy is she was a Maquis but she wasn't. Denied.

State of Flux. More Seska. She's not a complete Bitch because she's Maquis, she's a complete Bitch because she's a spoonhead. Denied.

Learning Curve. To Tuvok with Love. Pulling some Maquis up by their bootstraps. Approved.

Manoeuvres. Another Seska episode. Seska wasn't a Maquis, just like she wasn't Starfleet. Denied.

Prototype. A B'Elanna episode where she teaches robots how to boff? Denied.

Alliances. I'm seeing pattern here. Seska episodes are more %70 Cardassian Spy episodes than they ever could be Retired Maquis episodes. Denied

Dreadnought. YES! Finally! Maquis bomb gone rogue in the Delta Quadrant. Seriously? Caretaker tried to have sex with dreadnought? That fucker had no lights on upstairs. Approved!

Resolutions. WTF? They both retired from Starfleet! But Chakotay is a Maquis so it's a Maquis episode, and Tuvok, a former Maquis was Captain so it's victory for the Maquis??! Pull the other other one. DENIED!

Basics part 1
Basics part 2
Seska ditto. Stop making shit up. This camping trip would have unified the crew under a single banner more so than almost any other adventure they had. They didn't divide into two factions. They stuck together. Denied, denied.

Worst Case Scenario. Cardassian Spy episode. Denied.

Random thoughts. Dreams about their past lives that included a slipet of past antics as a Maquis. Just a slipet... HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM... I'll give it to you approved.

Repression. Totally. Yes. A fricking Maquis episode without a doubt. Approved.

Shattered. Really? Young Janeway puts a Maquis terrorist leader under lock and key only to slowly uncover that he never was a Maquis leader any more and that he is a wise and noble Starfleet Officer just like she is and it was only her preconceptions and lack of any capacity to think fourth dimensionally that... Well, I suppose you had Maquis from the pilot running about but since I wouldn't accept the pilot as an episode about the Maquis it would be hypocritical to accept this, however the entire point of Shattered is "Look How we've grown" and for some of the crew that would have tenuously been from Maquis to NOT Maquis. This episode explains why there are so few Maquis episodes, because they have mostly forgotten that they were Maquis. I mean as soon as they cross border into federation, surely it's their duty is to take the ship from Janeway and and blow up as many Cardassian planets and out posts until they're John Dillingered. Grudgingly approved.

...

%75 of the episodes you mentioned are just there because the word "Maquis" was in te Script.%90 of the episodes you mention are just there because Seska is there. Prime Factors is tricky because even though I know that Martha had no Idea that Seska was a Cardassian at that point, I'm only %80 sure that the writers also had no idea that Seska was a Cardassian too, so because of the ignorance of the production squad, it means that Seska was just a mischievous Maquis trouble maker fucking about and not a manipulative Cardassian spy mistress with a master plan.

Flip a frakking coin.

A Maquis story should explore the Maquis condition as a collective of individuals or as a political movement or minority unwittingly marginalized by Starfleet or how they take back their wind and celebrate their distinctiveness, it should investigate their past or set forth a route into their future.

It should be about the Maquis, and not just have Token Maquis as wallpaper in the background.

By my count, I only found 6 Maquis episodes out of your list of a staggering 17 Maquisentric episodes... 14 of which happened in the first 3 seasons, and that goes up to 15 if you count Shattered since so much of it was set in the past.

It's almost like you're willing to lie to put your point across.
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Old January 10 2013, 01:00 AM   #55
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

Even for the sake of argument, if all those 17 episode were about the Maquis, that's 17 out of 172. Ten percent. So that means for 90% of the show they're virtually ignored.

In reality it's more, how much is subject to opinion. Guy and I came up with similar, though slightly different conclusions, but hey.
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Old January 10 2013, 01:56 AM   #56
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Even for the sake of argument, if all those 17 episode were about the Maquis, that's 17 out of 172. Ten percent. So that means for 90% of the show they're virtually ignored.

In reality it's more, how much is subject to opinion. Guy and I came up with similar, though slightly different conclusions, but hey.
as i already said,its illogical to keep focusing on the Maquis...you are in a new quadrant filled with new species,planets etc to explore and after 2 or 3 years the Maquis adapted to life on Voyager and became fully integrated and focusing on a single goal and that is getting home.
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Old January 10 2013, 02:00 AM   #57
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

Until Tuvok started picking them off?
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Old January 10 2013, 03:05 AM   #58
R. Star
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

jpch wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Even for the sake of argument, if all those 17 episode were about the Maquis, that's 17 out of 172. Ten percent. So that means for 90% of the show they're virtually ignored.

In reality it's more, how much is subject to opinion. Guy and I came up with similar, though slightly different conclusions, but hey.
as i already said,its illogical to keep focusing on the Maquis...you are in a new quadrant filled with new species,planets etc to explore and after 2 or 3 years the Maquis adapted to life on Voyager and became fully integrated and focusing on a single goal and that is getting home.
Nevermind the fact that people don't just "fully integrate" at the snap of a finger, or that the Maquis shouldn't be so eager to warp home in a 9.975 prison bus, but if you're arguing that the Maquis shouldn't need to be a major plot point, why did you try defending the fact that they were?
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Old January 10 2013, 03:10 AM   #59
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

The best of both worlds?
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Old January 10 2013, 12:26 PM   #60
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Re: Security Chief Kim...really?

In Gene Rodenberry's perfect future where humans have evolved beyond conflict in the workplace, even sworn enemies like the Starfleet and the Maquis get along without friction when necessary.
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