MLB Offseason 2012

[R. Star]

I always thought the tomahawk chop was cool as heck. Though I loved how the Cub fans turned it on them during the 03 playoffs when there were more Cub fans than Brave fans in Turner Stadium. The Cub fans all took off their Cub hats and mocked the chop when the Cubs scored.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here's the new look for Dodger Stadium: Linky

[Scout101]

No Hall of Fame chatter?

Well, the news today is that your 2013 HoF class is: No one.

Bonds and Clemens will both get elected eventually, but this was the mandatory punishment for steroids (despite the whole league being dirty. these guys got caught). Piazza and Schilling did decent for 1st year of elegibility, and Craigg Biggio was closest to election. Likely all of those names make it eventually, although Schilling is a little more questionable. Numbers are a little short, but being on some memorable teams, plus incredible post-season performances and heroics, likely gets him the nod...

[R. Star]

Well, as many big names that were on the ballot this year, it's not surprising no one got in. Not enough votes to go around for all of them.

Biggio and Piazza seem likely to get in. I'm not so sure about Bonds and Clemens. Sosa's low vote percentage was really surprising. I didn't think he was as marred by the steroid brush as Bonds and Clemens for example.

Next year it's only gonna get more complicated. Maddux, Glavine, Kent, Thomas, and Mussina are all likely to command a high number of votes. Normally I'd say Maddux and Glaivine both are first balloters, but hard to say with the widening field.

[Kirby]

Fine by me nobody got in, although IMO Biggio kind of deserved to get in on the first ballot. I think that they should all eventually get in (Bonds and Clemmons should have to wait until their final year of eligiblity though), but this is clearly a protest year.

[Dale Sams]

My 2014 ballot would be, in no particular order

Maddux
Glavine
Thomas
Kent
Bagwell
Biggio
Schilling
Piazza
Clemens
Bonds

More if I had more room...

[Pegaritaville]

I was hoping Jack Morris would get voted in. Thought he had a good shot this year. I guess after being on the ballot for 14 years, he's kind of been forgotten.

[Kirby]

^^ Same with Dale Murphy, I believe this was his final year of eligiblity.

[Timby]

Pegaritaville wrote:

---

I was hoping Jack Morris would get voted in. Thought he had a good shot this year. I guess after being on the ballot for 14 years, he's kind of been forgotten.

Morris is an absolutely terrible Hall of Fame candidate. JAWS has him as the 167th best starting pitching candidate for the Hall. Let's say that method is massively unkind to Morris and he's actually in the 60s; only one person from 60-69 is in, and all but Eddie Cicotte are eligible. He'd instantly become one of the worst pitchers in the Hall. I'd be hard-pressed to even call him a borderline candidate; he belongs in the Hall of Good.

The following pitchers were better than Jack Morris, statistically speaking, in roughly the same era and didn't have a prayer at getting into the Hall: Dave Stieb, David Cone, Kevin Brown, Orel Hershiser, Brett Saberhagen, David Wells, Kevin Appier. I can't think of a single statistical argument for Morris in the Hall.

Next year it's only gonna get more complicated. Maddux, Glavine, Kent, Thomas, and Mussina are all likely to command a high number of votes. Normally I'd say Maddux and Glaivine both are first balloters, but hard to say with the widening field.

Maddux, Thomas and Glavine are all perceived as completely clean on steroids and way, way over the statistical markers, they should coast in and I would expect Maddux to have one of the highest vote totals in history (though he won't beat Seaver, thanks to the jackasses who return blank ballots).

Kind of bummed that Kenny Lofton was a one-and-done.

In any event, I want to know who submitted a vote for Aaron fuckin' Sele.

[Dale Sams]

Timby wrote:

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Morris is an absolutely terrible Hall of Fame candidate. JAWS has him as the 167th best starting pitching candidate for the Hall. Let's say that method is massively unkind to Morris and he's actually in the 60s; only one person from 60-69 is in, and all but Eddie Cicotte are eligible. He'd instantly become one of the worst pitchers in the Hall. I'd be hard-pressed to even call him a borderline candidate; he belongs in the Hall of Good.

The following pitchers were better than Jack Morris, statistically speaking, in roughly the same era and didn't have a prayer at getting into the Hall: Dave Stieb, David Cone, Kevin Brown, Orel Hershiser, Brett Saberhagen, David Wells, Kevin Appier. I can't think of a single statistical argument for Morris in the Hall.

Maddux, Thomas and Glavine are all perceived as completely clean on steroids and way, way over the statistical markers, they should coast in and I would expect Maddux to have one of the highest vote totals in history (though he won't beat Seaver, thanks to the jackasses who return blank ballots).

Kind of bummed that Kenny Lofton was a one-and-done.

In any event, I want to know who submitted a vote for Aaron fuckin' Sele.

Thomas will get lost in the shuffle...at BBTF there's some real concern that Kent will be one and done, which would be a tragedy. My prediction is that he'll stay on the ballot but not top 30%.

[Timby]

Frank Thomas has the hardware, stats, and the track record of speaking out against steroids / in favor of more player testing (I think he was submitting his piss tests to an independent lab as early as like 1995), which I think will help his case among the self-righteous assholes who comprise the BBWAA.

Of course, after this year's MVP voting and the absurd Hall voting, I have no idea what to expect from the BBWAA anymore.

[Scout101]

Kirby wrote:

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Fine by me nobody got in, although IMO Biggio kind of deserved to get in on the first ballot.

Why?

Not just why first ballot, but what's the argument that he belongs at all?

3000 hits is really his claim, but when you play 20 years, is that really impressive? Only had 200 hits in a season once, only hit over .300 3 or 4 times, never really had those big HoF seasons, just a nice player for a long time. Hall of Very Good, not sure Hall of Fame.

Anyone ever afraid of facing him? Ever really dominate the league in anything? MVP? More then a handful of All-Star appearances? Carry a team through a World Series or two?

Baseball's funny with the importance of stats, and especially the 'counting' stats as a requirement for HoF entrance. 3000 hits, 500 HRs, 300 wins, etc. With shorter careers, those were biggies, but with the 20+ year careers, not impressed by being merely decent for a long time. You can wax poetic over Babe Ruth, or Mantle, Ted Williams, etc. Anyone really excited about seeing Biggio play?

I'm a 'meh' on that one.

Call me a Red Sox homer, but I put more importance on Schilling's post-season heroics (while falling short on counting stats) over Biggio making the 3000 hits but never really carrying a team or 3 on his back, being dominant. Not sure either really HAS to be in or out, just think I'd rather see Schilling if I had to pick just one. 2001, 2004, 2007, Bloody Sock game, ending Boston's drought, etc...

[Timby]

Biggio's a tough call; I actually expected him to have a fairly easy election outside of the "NO FIRST-TIME BALLOT" jackasses. He was one of the faces of the Astros for a long time along with Bagwell, he never complained from having to move from being an all-star catcher to being an all-star 2B (to being an atrocious outfielder), and I sometimes think he doesn't get nearly enough credit for how well he made that transition -- he went from being a beast of a catcher to being an absolute beast of a 2B, when most converted catchers wind up at first or at the DH because their mobility is already gone. In any event the only players with at least 3,000 hits who aren't in the Hall are Palmeiro (who will never get in and I fully expect him to drop off the ballot within five years) and Rose (who is Rose).

He does certainly have some knocks on him, though. His playing forever destroyed his rate stats, his WAR-based stats are good / not great, and he doesn't have great narrative value unless you're Bill James.

That being said, I think he'll get in eventually, but it's certainly plausible that he could have to wait until as late as 2016. The 2014 ballot adds Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Mussina and Kent; 2015 adds the Big Unit, Pedro Martinez, Smoltz and Sheffield. However, in 2016 it calms down to just Junior Griffey and Jim Edmonds. That's a lot of facially similar or better candidates Biggio will be competing with.

I'm astounded by how poorly Bonds did, though. It just goes to show important being nice to sportswriters is. I'm crossing sports, here, but Ray Lewis was involved in a double murder and lied to the cops, yet is hailed as an all-American hero, while Barry Bonds was surly and maybe took dinger juice, but he only murdered baseballs and is considered a pariah.

Fun Bonds fact I realized a while back: He entered the 1992 season with more WAR under his belt than Jack Morris racked up in his entire career.

[Kirby]

Scout101 wrote:

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Why?

Because I like him....

I know from a statistical standpoint he made it because of his longevity, and he probably isn't really a 1st ballot guy, but I respect the hell out him for being an all star catcher and then converting to 2nd base where most catchers go to either 1st base or right field, and became a multiple all star at that position.
He's also the only player with 3000+ hits, 600+ doubles, 400+ stolen bases, and 250+ homeruns.

He was never the stereotypical studly hero player, but he went about his business every day and amassed some great numbers and there's never been any speculation that he never took steroids.

For the Record, I'm not an Astros homer, so this just isn't fanboy stuff. I've lived in Colorado most of my life and my teams are the Rockies and the Twins (because I hate myself). I just admire the guy's work.

[Timby]

I'm also not really sure I buy the longevity argument against Biggo, now that I think about it; granted, the season lengths were different in some cases, but Cap Anson played for 26 years, Al Kaline 21, Rickey Henderson 24, Dave Winfield 22, and they're all in the Hall (on the first ballot, no less) and near / around Biggio's lifetime hit total.