RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 137,841
Posts: 5,327,454
Members: 24,552
Currently online: 469
Newest member: mekogas

TrekToday headlines

Latest Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Jul 10

Seven of Nine Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

Pegg The Prankster
By: T'Bonz on Jul 9

More Trek Stars Join Unbelievable!!!!!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

Star Trek #35 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 8

New ThinkGeek Trek Apparel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Star Trek Movie Prop Auction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

Drexler: NX Engineering Room Construction
By: T'Bonz on Jul 7

New Trek Home Fashions
By: T'Bonz on Jul 4

Star Trek Pop-Ups Book Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 3


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 9 2013, 07:18 AM   #46
AllStarEntprise
Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

We see from FC and NEM that the new Sovereign class can give and take with the some of the fiercest ships in the galaxy. Borg cubes and Scimitar dreadnoughts. Seeing the ENT-E fight an uphill battle against a fleet of Jem'Hadar ships would've been epic to see on the big screen. Lest we not forget the DS9 season 7 episode Penumbra where Weyoun name drops the Son'a, and they were directed to protect a Ketracel White facility. Riker in INS said the Son'a were known manufacturers of the narcotic enzyme. Since the Son'a were apart of the Dominion, why not use the A guard (Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and Changelings) against the ENT-E for a movie? INS seems so phoned in when you think of what could've been.
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 07:26 AM   #47
Dale Sams
Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
We see from FC and NEM that the new Sovereign class can give and take with the some of the fiercest ships in the galaxy. Borg cubes and Scimitar dreadnoughts. Seeing the ENT-E fight an uphill battle against a fleet of Jem'Hadar ships would've been epic to see on the big screen. Lest we not forget the DS9 season 7 episode Penumbra where Weyoun name drops the Son'a, and they were directed to protect a Ketracel White facility. Riker in INS said the Son'a were known manufacturers of the narcotic enzyme. Since the Son'a were apart of the Dominion, why not use the A guard (Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and Changelings) against the ENT-E for a movie? INS seems so phoned in when you think of what could've been.
The producers were deadset against making a 'war movie'. I simply don't see how to make the Dominion the main villains without bringing all that baggage.
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 08:31 AM   #48
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Opening crawls worked for the first episodes of DS9 and VOY, I could have handled a brief expository into to INS if the "trade-off" was a story that felt more relevant to the larger Trekverse as it existed at the time.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 08:50 AM   #49
AllStarEntprise
Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

^ Fellowship of the Ring and An Unexpected Journey both had about 7-9 minute film openings that described the backstory of each film's plot and to set things up for the audience. This could've been done for INS. Not much to tell with the Dominion. They did it for the Borg however briefly in FC.

Here is my abridged version of the Dominion conflict monologue
1. Have Picard talking about the principles of the Federation and how they've always been a space exploration society built on peace and unity.

2. As they explored further and further in to the galaxy they discovered a race (changelings) who felt threatened by the Fed. Have Picard say that the Fed always tries to seek a diplomatic solution over conflict, but circumstances at the time didn't allow and first contact was made on the battlefield with casualties for the Fed (DS9 season 2).

3.Touch on how a dialogue was opened with the Dominion (DS9 season 3) but they remained resolute in their ways and the only way they (the Founders) saw forward was the complete subjugation of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.

4. Rightly ignore the parts about the Klingon-Fed war from DS9 season 4 and 5, ignore the Coup d'état from DS9 Homefront and Paradise Lost but not the Changeling infiltration part, and ignore the Maqui bullshit.

5. With diplomatic talks a failure, open warfare between the two super powers broke out. With the Dominion as conquerors and the Fed as reluctant opponents fighting for truth, justice and the Roddenberry way!

6. Remark that the war as been going on for nearly 2 years and at present the war has no foreseeable end. Set this all to a montage of scenes with music.

The conflict between the Dominion and the Fed really isn't that deep. It could've been done like I briefly outlined. Think of all the Vietnam, WWI, WWII, Civil, and Revolutionary war films there are. Not every single one of them outlines the details that led to open conflict, but they end up being good movies, and audiences like them. Exposition and montage about why the Dominion War is happening wouldn't be lost on the audience if it was done with some style and before the film.

Looking at DS9 for episodes that you would need to gleam info from for a short synopsis of the Dominion conflict would be

Season 2

Jem'Hadar

Season 3

The Search 1-2

Season 4

Homefront and Paradise Lost for the Changeling infiltration parts

The Quickening to show how ruthless the Dominion can be with biological warfare

Season 5

In Purgatory's Shadow

By Inferno's Light

Season 6

A Time to Stand

Rocks and Shoals

Favor the Bold

Sacrifice of Angels

Season 7

The Siege of AR-558 (only if for the desperation of the cause and how it's effecting members of the Starfleet) The air date is close to INS release date so it might not fit.

So yeah for a general audience that has no idea about the who's who and what's what in Star Trek, a brief summation of the important Dominion aspects of these episodes in a 7-10 minute preamble and or montage to the film could have worked.


Like my early post, I suggested we kept the Ba'ku in the film as the indigenous people of the planet and have them caught in the crossfire of the Dominion and Feds war. The audience would see the Dominion as antagonists regardless and the TNG crew wouldn't be able to hold their heads up high over what the conflict had cost the innocent lives of the Ba'ku. The only certainty for the TNG crew would be the war goes on. Leaving behind a trail of lost lives, including the TNG crews on. A metaphor for the life they had on the show and the life they live now as combatants.
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 02:16 PM   #50
lurok
Commodore
 
lurok's Avatar
 
Location: Lost in the EU expanse with a nice cup of tea
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

sonak wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post
lurok wrote: View Post
Pretty much.

But at the risk of repetition, the Frakes/Sirtis commentary makes it a lot more fun.
Yeah, but you're repeating me, so it's okay. In fact, I endorse such actions.

I have read over and over again about how great their commentary is, but I have an older version of the movie on DVD.
Here's some of it which will give you a taster Pts 1 & 2 seem to be missing though...

lurok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 02:23 PM   #51
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Insurrection is not that bad, for Pete's sake. Some of you act like it's Plan 9 or something.
It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen and the bottom of the Trek barrel. It is a prime example of what happens when you bow to star demands and have to many people involved in the writing process.
__________________
"When I first heard about it (the Enterprise underwater), my inner Trekkie was in a rage. When I saw it, my inner kid beat up my inner Trekkie and made him go sit in the corner." - Bill Jasper
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 02:31 PM   #52
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Insurrection is not that bad, for Pete's sake. Some of you act like it's Plan 9 or something.
It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen and the bottom of the Trek barrel. It is a prime example of what happens when you bow to star demands and have to many people involved in the writing process.
So Plan 9 From Outer Space is better?
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 02:32 PM   #53
Lance
Fleet Captain
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

While I can see the obvious benefits for including the Dominion in INS, I can also agree with The Powers That Be in their reasoning that the audience shouldn't be expected to know the ins and outs of what's going on in DS9 in order to follow the plot (I seem to recall this was Berman's reasoning -- that there might be casual TNG viewers who hadn't emigrated to the spin-offs and who therefore wanted a "clean" Next Gen film without any of the mythological baggage that had been built up in DS9 and VOY).

On the other hand, the way I understand it Michael Piller's first thought seems to have been not to include the Dominion as such, but simply to pepper the plot with hints of the ongoing story arc. So the events of the film would use the Dominion war as a backdrop, without necessarily being 'about' the Dominion war. Hints of this do carry through to the final product, but in a vastly watered-down form.

I like the idea that a scrolling 'recap' might have worked as a compromise between maintaining consistency with DS9/VOY, and still being accessible enough to the casuals in the audience...
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 04:40 PM   #54
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

"(Appropriate amount of time) ago, the United Federation of Planets made first contact with the Dominion, a hostile power. For (appropriate length of time), the Federation and Dominion have been at war, with the Federation suffering (appropriate number) of casualties. The starship Enterprise, under the command of Jean-Luc Picard, was recalled from the front lines one week ago to engage in a top-secret mission that could determine the course of the war."

...or some such thing.

Heck, not to rip off "Emissary", but it would have been "cool" if the movie had immediately launched into the Enterprise in the midst of a battle with Dominion ships.

Oh well.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"

Last edited by DonIago; January 9 2013 at 04:50 PM.
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 04:42 PM   #55
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

lurok wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

Yeah, but you're repeating me, so it's okay. In fact, I endorse such actions.

I have read over and over again about how great their commentary is, but I have an older version of the movie on DVD.
Here's some of it which will give you a taster Pts 1 & 2 seem to be missing though...

thanks for that little taste. It does seem funny, but I hope that other parts of it are a little more substantive as far as analyzing the film, the choices made, etc.?
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 06:29 PM   #56
Dale Sams
Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Insurrection is not that bad, for Pete's sake. Some of you act like it's Plan 9 or something.
It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen and the bottom of the Trek barrel. It is a prime example of what happens when you bow to star demands and have to many people involved in the writing process.
Having read Piller's book now, I want to thank everyone who suggested it and FOR MAKING ME FEEL BAD for not liking it.(Insurrection) Thannnnks a lot.

Last edited by Dale Sams; January 9 2013 at 07:32 PM.
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 9 2013, 07:12 PM   #57
lurok
Commodore
 
lurok's Avatar
 
Location: Lost in the EU expanse with a nice cup of tea
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

sonak wrote: View Post
thanks for that little taste. It does seem funny, but I hope that other parts of it are a little more substantive as far as analyzing the film, the choices made, etc.?
Substantive? Noooo. That's about the level of their analysis
lurok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 10:16 AM   #58
AllStarEntprise
Captain
 
AllStarEntprise's Avatar
 
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Insurrection is not that bad, for Pete's sake. Some of you act like it's Plan 9 or something.
It is one of the worst movies I've ever seen and the bottom of the Trek barrel. It is a prime example of what happens when you bow to star demands and have to many people involved in the writing process.
Having read Piller's book now, I want to thank everyone who suggested it and FOR MAKING ME FEEL BAD for not liking it.(Insurrection) Thannnnks a lot.
I have the Fade In pdf but haven't read it. Yes it's tragic that Piller died and can't really defend his work now. However seeing what he was writing on the first first 2 seasons of Voyager really does call in to question the quality of work he was putting out at the time of INS. While Piller remained a consultant on for Voyager in later season but you have to look at the two shows he launched. DS9 and VOY early seasons were less than stellar. DS9 was boring and VOY was so frustating i felt like punching a hole in my tv. When Piller left both Jeri Ryan, Brannon Braga took over VOY and it slowly became the show it ended up as. Im presently in season 5 and it's superior to the early seasons in many ways. Ira Steven Behr and Ron D. Moore were instrumental in shaping DS9 after season 2 to build up to it's signature recognized storyline, the Dominion War. Piller is great for all he did for Trek but the man did have some stinkers on his record. I read on Memory Alpha that even Ira Steven Behr found INS script weak.

Strange how history remembers your faults over your triumphs .
AllStarEntprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 01:31 PM   #59
Australis
Writer
 
Australis's Avatar
 
Location: The Electric Age
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Yeah, I'm a fair way into it now, and, I dunno, I think they started with a dud premise (Heart of Darkness mixed with Fountain of Youth) and it never got better. Coming off the tremendous success of FC, it was a tough one to follow.

I think they could have kept some of the same elements and made it a much tougher movie, and it would have worked better, but to a large extent that's Monday morning quarterbacking (I think that's the expression), and no point this late in the day.
__________________
"… Times change, and so must I… we all change. When you think about it, we are all different people, all through our lives and that’s okay, that’s good! You've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be."
Australis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 10 2013, 04:53 PM   #60
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: My "Just Saw Insurrection For the First Time" Review.

Australis wrote: View Post
Yeah, I'm a fair way into it now, and, I dunno, I think they started with a dud premise (Heart of Darkness mixed with Fountain of Youth) and it never got better. Coming off the tremendous success of FC, it was a tough one to follow.

I think they could have kept some of the same elements and made it a much tougher movie, and it would have worked better, but to a large extent that's Monday morning quarterbacking (I think that's the expression), and no point this late in the day.

yeah, I'm with you on the dud premise. Really, I don't see a way that he could have made it work if this basic premise was the one he was determined to work around. I've written on previous threads on this movie that there was just no way for it to work. They should have told him to scrap the original idea and start over.
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.