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Old January 7 2013, 07:24 PM   #31
R. Star
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

tighr wrote: View Post
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See? The whole "they knew they had to create me after they met me" thing makes no sense.
It makes no sense to YOU, but that's because you are a linear being with linear time.

Ln X wrote: View Post
A far more simpler explanation is that the Prophets were pretending to not understand linear time (or corporeal time or whatever) just so Sisko could understand a little about them.
I reject that theory, because we have no proof that the prophets were "pretending" anything. A far simpler explanation is to take what they say at face value, and simply believe that they are capable of these things.
Even if they Prophets don't experience linear time, that doesn't mean that linear time ceases to exist. Sarah Sisko was possessed by a Prophet to conceive Sisko. His dad flat out said, she wasn't at all interested in him after she was unpossessed. So for there to be a Sisko for the Prophets to meet in Emissary, they had to have played a part in it. You can't get around that one.
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Old January 7 2013, 07:49 PM   #32
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Even if they Prophets don't experience linear time, that doesn't mean that linear time ceases to exist. Sarah Sisko was possessed by a Prophet to conceive Sisko. His dad flat out said, she wasn't at all interested in him after she was unpossessed. So for there to be a Sisko for the Prophets to meet in Emissary, they had to have played a part in it. You can't get around that one.
Linear time exists, but we are only able to go in one direction and at one speed.

The Prophets, who do not experience linear time like we do, are free to move in any direction and at any speed on the axis that we perceive as "time", just as we are able to freely move in the 3 dimensional axis that we perceive as height, length, and width. Presumably, the Prophets are constrained by some unknown 5th dimension in much the same way we are as time.

But then again, since that is an extremely abstract idea, none of us are really able to comprehend it.
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Old January 7 2013, 07:50 PM   #33
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

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They chose Dukat as their emissary, was that decision made before his birth? Or was he just the right guy for the job because of who he was?
There is no "before": the Pah Wraiths are not linear.
Correction, the Pah Wraiths aren't linear if they exist in the Celestial Temple. But since they are trapped in a corporeal world they are subject to linear time, although I don't think changes in the timeline can affect them.
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Old January 8 2013, 01:34 AM   #34
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

Maybe it's like drawing. A child draws a picture. He hasn't learned the concept of perspective, so nothing is the right size or in the right place. The Prophets have this two-dimensional picture of our universe because they haven't been exposed to certain concepts yet.

Sisko shows up, and suddenly their whole perspective is different. He is essentially their vanishing point. The picture is still on a flat piece of paper; they still don't experience linear time, but now they know how to manipulate their flat piece of paper to make it appear as if the drawing possesses 3-dimensional qualities.
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Old January 8 2013, 04:25 AM   #35
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

tighr wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Even if they Prophets don't experience linear time, that doesn't mean that linear time ceases to exist. Sarah Sisko was possessed by a Prophet to conceive Sisko. His dad flat out said, she wasn't at all interested in him after she was unpossessed. So for there to be a Sisko for the Prophets to meet in Emissary, they had to have played a part in it. You can't get around that one.
Linear time exists, but we are only able to go in one direction and at one speed.

The Prophets, who do not experience linear time like we do, are free to move in any direction and at any speed on the axis that we perceive as "time", just as we are able to freely move in the 3 dimensional axis that we perceive as height, length, and width. Presumably, the Prophets are constrained by some unknown 5th dimension in much the same way we are as time.

But then again, since that is an extremely abstract idea, none of us are really able to comprehend it.
Sorry, but I don't take some vague reference to it being beyond our comprehension as a plausible argument. Regardless of how the Prophets do or don't experience time, they cannot meet the man they created before they create him.
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Old January 8 2013, 03:28 PM   #36
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

So you are saying that time travel is impossible?

That argument can be supported in the real world, but within the rules of Star Trek, it just doesn't wash. Effect can precede cause in Star Trek, and often does. Why the Prophet thing would stand out in this respect, I can't imagine.

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Old January 8 2013, 04:12 PM   #37
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

The argument is that the Prophets knew they had to create Sisko when they met him. I've already pointed out how Sisko couldn't have met them without creating him. Now it's obvious Sisko really only time traveled a couple times and it wasn't in Emissary.

As for the Prophets. All the evidence is they behave VERY linear outside of the wormhole. The pagh-wraiths whined a few times about how long they've been exiled after all. Sisko's visions certainly came at appropriate times and not just randomly over the course of his life. To say nothing of giving Prophecies to the Bajorians that tend to come true.

So the non-linear existence thing seems to be a trait of the wormhole. Sisko didn't time travel to go into the wormhole and even if he did, the Prophets had to have known about him BEFORE they met him. They created him. They experience all time after all, right?

So the time travel argument seems to hold no dice here.
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Old January 8 2013, 04:49 PM   #38
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

R. Star wrote: View Post
The argument is that the Prophets knew they had to create Sisko when they met him. I've already pointed out how Sisko couldn't have met them without creating him. Now it's obvious Sisko really only time traveled a couple times and it wasn't in Emissary.
Yes he could. Marty, you're not thinking fourth dimensionally! As Captain Braxton said; "A leads to B, leads to C, leads to A."

Effect precedes cause. From Accession;
AKOREM: Tell him that I fulfilled the ancient Prophecies. That I was the first to find the Celestial temple. I was the first to meet with you. He came to you centuries later.
BASHIR: First. Later.
KIRA: They have no meaning to us.

....

ODO: They are linear.
KIRA: It limits them.
PORTA: They do not understand.
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Old January 8 2013, 04:54 PM   #39
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

Given Braxton was clearly insane when he said that little line, I don't give it much credit, anyways.. This has nothing to do with effect preceding cause or some vague reference be being "forth dimensional."

Sisko never would have existed without the Prophets. No chance at all Sarah would've hooked up with his dad on her own violation. So if the Prophets are all non-linear and even if they created Sisko in another "time" why didn't they know about it as they did it? No way they could have met him before they created him. You can't just throw out some cliche and say it makes sense because it's beyond our comprehension.

Your example about Akorem just demonstrates the fact that they DID know about Sisko all along. They didn't meet him and realize he was "the one" he was engineered as a tool, and Akorem was used to sharpen that tool.
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Old January 8 2013, 06:00 PM   #40
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

The R. Star is linear. It limits him. He does not understand.
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Old January 8 2013, 06:10 PM   #41
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

tighr wrote: View Post
The R. Star is linear. It limits him. He does not understand.
Yeah, see... that's not an argument or a point, that's rhetoric.
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Old January 8 2013, 06:17 PM   #42
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

R. Star wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
The R. Star is linear. It limits him. He does not understand.
Yeah, see... that's not an argument or a point, that's rhetoric.
I knew you were going to say that before you said it.
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Old January 8 2013, 06:20 PM   #43
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

tighr wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
tighr wrote: View Post
The R. Star is linear. It limits him. He does not understand.
Yeah, see... that's not an argument or a point, that's rhetoric.
I knew you were going to say that before you said it.
Well how about next week's powerball numbers while you're in a non-linear mood?
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Old January 8 2013, 06:32 PM   #44
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

i'm just thinking what temporal integrity commission and DTI have to say about the proper timeline being maybe the one w/o Sisko...
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Old January 8 2013, 06:34 PM   #45
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Re: Did The Prophets Know About Sisko Before Emissary?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Well how about next week's powerball numbers while you're in a non-linear mood?
There is no "next week", there is no "while", it's non-linear!
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