Will I like Torchwood if I never saw Doctor Who?

[DalekJim]

It wasn't misogynist, it was immature and obnoxious. The show never actually dealt with sexuality maturely. It was just a series of tedious scenes of good looking people of the same sex fondling. Scenes like James Marsters saying he'd like to fuck a dog, or him and Jack snogging aren't mature.

They're the TV equivalent of two drunk straight sluts kissing in public to get people's attention. It's just lazy and annoying. "Look at me, look at me!". No, you're not shocking. You're just shit.

[Blamo]

Christopher wrote:

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I don't know where you get "misogyny" from it.

In the first season there isn't one positive or even neutral female character, not one out of Gwen, Toshiko and Suzie. Toshiko was pathetic, Gwen was a total bi*th and Suzie was evil. The only negative male character was Owen.

In the very first episode we have Owen using his very morally questionable spray to get laid. At most he got a raised eyebrow from Jack.

There's the woman as a sexual predator, who even prays on gay men who tell her no.

Then there's the portrayal of lesbianism in the first season. On both of the two occasions, it was instigated by a different woman possessed by a different evil alien. In fact I'm not sure this was improved upon in season two, where the two victorian Torchwood women (who were shown to bring our hero Jack to heel) were portrayed as evil lesbians.

The women were less sexualized overall, which doesn't seem consistent with a charge of misogyny.

Less sexualised? We had Gwen being being snogged by another woman while the men sat back and were entertained. We also had the infamous Cyberwoman, whose "outfit" made Seven of Nine's look positively progressive.

[Christopher]

Blamo wrote:

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In the first season there isn't one positive or even neutral female character, not one out of Gwen, Toshiko and Suzie. Toshiko was pathetic, Gwen was a total bi*th and Suzie was evil. The only negative male character was Owen.

I think that's a very subjective assessment. I liked Gwen and Tosh. Gwen has been a mostly positive character throughout, at least as positive as anyone gets on Torchwood. She has her flaws, but she's the heart and conscience of the team. And Tosh has her insecurities, but is perhaps the nicest character.

Less sexualised? We had Gwen being being snogged by another woman while the men sat back and were entertained. We also had the infamous Cyberwoman, whose "outfit" made Seven of Nine's look positively progressive.

But as I've said, there was more graphic male nudity than female. I'm pretty sure that post-watershed BBC shows are allowed to show bare breasts -- and shows on the Starz cable network, as Torchwood: Miracle Day was, are certainly allowed to -- but we never saw any in the series's entire run. Conversely, we were shown plenty of bare male backsides, certainly more than I ever wanted to see. In Miracle Day, there's a rather graphic and extended sex scene between Jack and a male lover, more graphic than any hetero or lesbian scene in the entire series.

[Dream]

Blamo wrote:

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In the very first episode we have Owen using his very morally questionable spray to get laid. At most he got a raised eyebrow from Jack.

What Owen did was a little too much like date rape for me. If he doesn't have time to date women in order to get laid, can't he get a prostitute or something? Not sure how the UK handles prostitutes.

That scene was only saved in the end when he decided to make it a three way with the other boyfriend.

Less sexualised? We had Gwen being being snogged by another woman while the men sat back and were entertained.

Yeah, that is one of the reasons why I think the characters feel like teenagers. I mean... what the hell? Shouldn't they be worried Gwen would become the next victim?

I have to admit that scene was hot, the Gwen actress is cute, but the girl that they got to play the possessed victim look too underage for me, which ended up making the whole episode feel kind of gross.

[DalekJim]

Christopher wrote:

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Gwen has been a mostly positive character throughout, at least as positive as anyone gets on Torchwood. She has her flaws, but she's the heart and conscience of the team.

How!? She cheats on Rhys and is a general bitch to everybody. The only way she's the heart of the show is because Russell T. Davies keeps telling the audience how "marvellous" she is. He spoonfed the audience the exact same thing about Rose. His writing is all tell and no show.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

lurok wrote:

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S2 & 3 definitely the best. Would love another one though in that vein

In... that vein? I thought of all the four seasons, just in terms of what the show was like and what it's status quo was, Series 2 -> Series 3 was the largest jump. Wouldn't say they're in the same vein at all.

DalekJim wrote:

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How!? She cheats on Rhys and is a general bitch to everybody.

I like that Gwen completely cheated on Rhys and got away with it. No typical TV resolution; she cheated on him in Season 1 and then... from Season 2+, they're treated as the happy couple with Rhys completely unaware, even as he says typical RTD "My wife is purrfect" stuff, I find it quite funny.

No, my big issue with Gwen is how a pretty good character devolved into a complete parody in perfect hack fashion. What started as a snarky, sarcastic side turned into someone who acted like a monster. By Miracle Day, she was either acting like a psycho (shooting people / bazookas with baby in hand) or like a ravenous dog barking at everyone (any scenes she had with Q-from-TNG-but-now-CIA). And RTD expects us to cheer her on. No wonder Torchwood came to a screeching halt after MD.

The only way she's the heart of the show is because Russell T. Davies keeps telling the audience how "marvellous" she is. He spoonfed the audience the exact same thing about Rose. His writing is all tell and no show.

So true. The amount of "You're brilliant!"/"The Doctor... is the greatest man I ever met"/"Human beings; the most humanest, greatest species, capable of anything"/"And in that moment, which happened to be Episode 13, (Insert Companion) was the greatest, most brilliant woman who ever lived and most important ever"/(Sexy cry) was nauseating, as you could often just shift them around DW, TW and SJA as to the same thing being said but at what time of the year.

[DalekJim]

"You're the most remarkable man I've ever met!"

*vomits*

[Dream]

Guys, can you cool it with the SPOILERS?

I'm only on the second episode! Luckily my eyes are trained to completely skip posts that go into a little too much detail.

Please put all spoilers underl the spoiler tags or whatever you call it. Thanks.

[Christopher]

DalekJim wrote:

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How!? She cheats on Rhys and is a general bitch to everybody.

Can people please stop using that misogynistic epithet? It makes any attempts to accuse the show of misogyny seem rather hypocritical.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Christopher wrote:

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Can people please stop using that misogynistic epithet? It makes any attempts to accuse the show of misogyny seem rather hypocritical.

A) The word "bitch" is not inherently misogynistic. It's a term for both male and females to describe someone who is relentless in their assertiveness of one, and only one, perspective and refusing to compromise with those around them to the extent of actively being mean to those around them. It has everything to do with the content of the character; nothing to do with the gender.

B) DalekJim explicitly said he doesn't believe Torchwood was misogynistic and wasn't one of the ones providing that opinion, so there's nothing hypocritical about what he said.

[DalekJim]

Christopher wrote:

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Can people please stop using that misogynistic epithet? It makes any attempts to accuse the show of misogyny seem rather hypocritical.

Well, excuse me Bill Maher.

Also uh.. read better? I explicitly said the show wasn't misogynistic.

[Australis]

Well, the real question to the OP is... why has he/she watched Doctor Who?

Concur mostly with what's been said.

Season 1 has a very few good moments
Season 2 is an improvement, but not as much as I'd hoped.
Season 3... Season 3... Season 3 is probably some of THE best televised SF EVER. Not for the faint hearted, though.
Season 4 is a good five part story spread over ten episodes.

[Christopher]

Nagisa Furukawa wrote:

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A) The word "bitch" is not inherently misogynistic.

The word literally means "female dog." That sounds inherently misogynistic to me.

B) DalekJim explicitly said he doesn't believe Torchwood was misogynistic and wasn't one of the ones providing that opinion, so there's nothing hypocritical about what he said.

But the other person who used that word (albeit with an asterisk and otherwise misspelled) was claiming the show was misogynistic.

[Nagisa Furukawa]

Christopher wrote:

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But the other person who used that word (albeit with an asterisk and otherwise misspelled) was claiming the show was misogynistic.

Then why bring it up to DalekJim, or rather, to everyone in general rather than the one hypocritical offender?? If one particular person is saying that, it has nothing to do with anyone else who happens to say "bitch" which, honestly, has been more-or-less culturally acceptable since 2000 in most PG-13 conversations.

[DalekJim]

I'd understand if it was the word slut or whore but there's no way the word bitch is misogynistic. I think some people just like being offended on behalf of others.