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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old January 7 2013, 03:56 PM   #61
Christopher
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Re: After Romulus

Paris is right. It's a fallacy to equate the planet Romulus with the Romulan people. Nero may have claimed he was "the last of the Romulan Empire," but that was surely the hyperbole of a grief-deranged man. I mean, it's a star empire. An interstellar civilization. Of course they didn't all live on the planet Romulus itself. Just because Romulus is gone, that doesn't mean there's no more Romulan civilization.

Heck, we even have canonical precedent for species that have lost their homeworlds but still exist, from the Platonians and Fabrini to the Suliban and Xindi.
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Old January 7 2013, 04:19 PM   #62
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Re: After Romulus

The Romulan Empire has been shown to be so centralized that offing a single room full of people was all it took for Shinzon to take over in Nemesis, and of course the aftermath of that was the RSE/IRS schism that lasted a couple of years. I'd say it's a possibility that the Romulan Empire will fall or splinter after it gets supernova'd. But of course, we shall see...
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Old January 7 2013, 04:25 PM   #63
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Re: After Romulus

King Daniel wrote: View Post
The Romulan Empire has been shown to be so centralized that offing a single room full of people was all it took for Shinzon to take over in Nemesis, and of course the aftermath of that was the RSE/IRS schism that lasted a couple of years. I'd say it's a possibility that the Romulan Empire will fall or splinter after it gets supernova'd. But of course, we shall see...
Well, it wasn't a room full of just anyone. It was the Praetor and most of the Senate. And just because the movie doesn't show it, it likely took months or years for Shinzon to gain enough backing from the Romulan military to be able to claim power.
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Old January 7 2013, 04:58 PM   #64
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Re: After Romulus

King Daniel wrote: View Post
The Romulan Empire has been shown to be so centralized that offing a single room full of people was all it took for Shinzon to take over in Nemesis, and of course the aftermath of that was the RSE/IRS schism that lasted a couple of years. I'd say it's a possibility that the Romulan Empire will fall or splinter after it gets supernova'd. But of course, we shall see...
Sure, the political entity called the Romulan Star Empire could fall, but that's not remotely the same thing as assuming that Romulans as a race would physically cease to exist. Especially in the novel continuity, we know that Romulans live and thrive on many planets other than Romulus itself. Even if the government is replaced, the civilization will still exist. And Spock's work toward unification, far from being rendered irrelevant, will become more important than ever, because the surviving Romulan people will need all the support they can get.
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Old January 7 2013, 06:01 PM   #65
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Re: After Romulus

/\Exactly,after all the Thallonians continue to exist as a cohesive racial group.

Too bad the writers chose to destroy Romulus though,the Romulans have always been my favourite "threat"race and just now what with all this Typhon pact mallarkey,they have never been as interesting.
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Old January 7 2013, 06:46 PM   #66
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Re: After Romulus

Going strictly by what we've seen in the shows Romulus has had very few colonies mentioned. I imagine that Romulus is seen as being the promised land due to it being the world chosen by their ancestors. It's possible that most of the other inhabited planets have a small Romulan presence, mostly military overseers using the indigenous population as slave labor.

Also, the Hobus supernova wouldn't have destroyed just Romulus but everything in between as well as in other directions. It's an expanding sphere. Spock may have used the red matter to stop it from entering Federation space. The rest of the RSE may be essentially depopulated.
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Old January 7 2013, 06:55 PM   #67
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Re: After Romulus

All that considered, I'm sure there are still other Romulans around, including a colony world or two. Certainly the days of the Romulans being one of the quadrant's biggest political entities are over, but the Romulan species is still around, even if there are very few left.
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Old January 7 2013, 07:11 PM   #68
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Re: After Romulus

Think of Star Trek Online. The game and its Path to 2409 and The Needs of the Many tie-ins deal extensively with the Post-Romulus era.

Here, several colonies vie for becoming the next capital. Taris becomes praetor, the captial Roma Nova is built on Rator III. When Sela becomes Empress in 2408, the Empire is finally politically stabilised.

That is, until she is abducted by the Iconians in 2409. The political order falls apart again, the Tal Shiar attempts to exterminate the Reman species (which is still part of the RSE in the STO continuity). The Reman rebellion, led by Obisek and based in The Vault (cf. ST: Nero) ally with the Romulan Reunification Movement led by D'tan.

Together, they settle a new planet called New Romulus in the Azure sector, intent on changing the deceitful ways of the Romulan people. They are on good terms with the UFP and the Klingon Empire but harassed by the Tal Shiar and the Tholian Assembly.

The end of Romulus is not the end of the Romulans. Either they become crazed fanatics (like Nero) or join forces with their Vulcan siblings. After all, it's about time the UFP swallows another major former enemy for optimism's sake.
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Old January 7 2013, 07:17 PM   #69
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Re: After Romulus

Both interpretations are possible, but of course we're not talking about some universe that actually exists and we're just learning about in pieces; we're talking about something that's entirely made up. So whether there are few Romulans left or many is solely a function of what the writers want to establish about it, and the writers can select the facts to fit the version they want. So we can't really argue that either scenario is certain. It could go either way just as easily.

But since we're unlikely to see any more canonical depictions of the Prime universe post-2387, that leaves it up to the tie-ins to determine how things go. And my point is that there's nothing to prevent Pocket or IDW from establishing that the Romulan people still endure after Hobus. Indeed, as Markonian just pointed out, Star Trek Online has already done so -- in their continuity, the supernova threw the empire into turmoil and triggered civil war and political strife for quite some time thereafter, but the RSE still exists in 2409 as a major galactic power and there are still plenty of Romulans around. I see no reason why the novels wouldn't take a similar route, especially since that would be in keeping with how the novels have already depicted the RSE to date. The scenario of a post-Hobus reality where the Romulan culture is extinct just doesn't seem like something we're ever likely to see in any professionally created work.
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Old January 7 2013, 08:49 PM   #70
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Re: After Romulus

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Huh? Trek XI showed the destruction of Romulus.
It's a while since I watched the film, but don't we see it in a flashback, ie, we're seeing what the character is describing, complete with their interpretation of events?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Nero witnessed the destruction of the planet firsthand: "I watched it happen! I saw it happen! Don't tell me it didn't happen!" Spock then used the red matter to somehow "stop" the supernova at the source (even though that should've done nothing if the radiation had already spread far enough to affect Romulus), and in Spock's own words: "As I began my return trip, I was intercepted.... In my attempt to escape, both of us were pulled into the black hole."

Spock was apparently aware of the planet's destruction, since the next thing he said after relating it was "I had little time" to deploy the red matter, suggesting that he was hastening in reaction to the event. So we know that Nero (and presumably his crew) directly witnessed the destruction and that Spock was either notified of it by someone else or detected it on long-range sensors. That's enough corroboration to be confident that the event actually did occur as described.
I was working on the principle that Nero is clearly insane and thus not a reliable witness. If he's the only source Spok had, he could've misinformed Spok.

I agree it's a stretch, and what's more, would be a fairly dissatisfying storyline unless done incredibly well. I'm just saying I can see it as at least plausible.

Should Spok be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive to try to restore the original timeline?

Last edited by Lee Son of Pete; January 7 2013 at 08:50 PM. Reason: poor punctuation, please accept my deepest apologies
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Old January 7 2013, 09:03 PM   #71
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Re: After Romulus

Lee Son of Pete wrote: View Post
I was working on the principle that Nero is clearly insane and thus not a reliable witness. If he's the only source Spok had, he could've misinformed Spok.
Which is incorrect. First off, Nero was not the only person aboard his ship. Presumably his entire crew witnessed the event. Second, as I explained, Spock was evidently aware of the planet's destruction before Nero confronted him, so either he detected it directly or was notified by someone other than Nero.


Should Spok be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive to try to restore the original timeline?
The original timeline hasn't been erased or altered. This timeline exists alongside it in parallel. So there's no need to "restore" anything. Besides, he has no way of getting back. It wouldn't be an option even if it were needed, which it isn't.
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Old January 7 2013, 09:21 PM   #72
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Re: After Romulus

Lee Son of Pete wrote: View Post
Should Spok be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive to try to restore the original timeline?
Its Spock.
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Old January 7 2013, 09:47 PM   #73
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Re: After Romulus

BillJ wrote: View Post
Its Spock.


I think I shall, from now on, employ that as a stock answer for any awkward question.
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Old January 7 2013, 09:49 PM   #74
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Re: After Romulus

Lee Son of Pete wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Its Spock.


I think I shall, from now on, employ that as a stock answer for any awkward question.
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Old January 8 2013, 02:57 AM   #75
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Re: After Romulus

Lee Son of Pete wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Huh? Trek XI showed the destruction of Romulus.
It's a while since I watched the film, but don't we see it in a flashback, ie, we're seeing what the character is describing, complete with their interpretation of events?
As I recall, it's part of Spock's mind meld with Kirk, which I intrepret as Spock essentially giving memories over to Kirk. If the destruction of Romulus is in Spock's memories, Spock must have seen it.

And besides, as mentioned above, Nero went absolutely apeshit about how he saw the destruction of Romulus. If we're to believe his character arc that he was a simple hardworking miner turned psychopath due to the destruction of his home, I would hope he's 100% certain his home is gone before he turned into a psychopath and that he's not murdering people and destroying planets just because someone told him Romulus was gone and he didn't bother to verify it. Nero's already one of Trek's worse villains, this would just ruin him completely.
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