Harrison in the Prime Universe

[Dale Sams]

Nerys Myk wrote:

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Same universe. Earth's FC with the Klingons was a disaster and got worse each time Archer and the Klingons met. It also happened centuries before the TNG time frame. So it's two for two regarding Picard's statement.

The last part is unknown, as we've no idea what happened in the decades between ENT and TOS. We also don't know which first contact with Klingons Picard was refering too. Could have been the first contact between the Klingons and Vulcan for all we know.

Finally, the guy who wrote the line in "First Contact" said Enterprise's take works fine with what was said. You may know him as My Name Is Legion, but mostly we call him "Dennis".

Heh. "Who am I to argue with history."

It may work fine. But you can understand my fanwank once Future Guys start sticking their big noses in.

Also, in the context of Picard's conversation...the events of Broken Bow just don't line up with what is being talked about. But I like your Vulcan FC theory. Also, by Picard's time...who knows what kind of info he has? Maybe all their history books teach is the important part. A Klingon crash landed, and a farmer shot him. See, I can fanwank both sides of the argument.

[Nerys Myk]

Picard was discussing the reasoning behind the UFP's first contact protocols. They didn't want disasters like what happened with the Klingons. A need to understand the people being contacted before official contact was made to insure there were no cultural misunderstandings. That pretty much fits "Broken Bow" to a T. Archer's ignorance of Klingon culture set Human/Klingon relations ( and by extension UFP/Klingon relations) off on the wrong foot and down the disaster path.

[King Daniel Into Darkness]

I go with the novelverse's interpretation - that the FC movie, the TCW stuff and the Xindi attack were always part of the Trek backstory, and it was these changes made to an earlier iteration of the timeline that created TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY in the first place. Any discontinuities are just out-of-universe retcons that don't count. (IIRC, Legion said he wrote the Klingon first contact stuff in "First Contact" as a throwaway few lines, never expecting them to feature said events years later - and that he didn't mind at all that they went in a different direction with it when they did.)

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It has been suggested that, had Picard and crew not appeared in the past of 2063 as shown in ST:FC, that the Mirror Universe resulted from it.

Meaning: the MU, and the resultant Terran Empire, is the 'natural' evolution of the timeline, and it was only Picard's interference from the future that created the 'good' regular universe. Not surprising, as in the 24th century of the MU there is no Empire, no Imperial Starfleet, and thus no mirror universe Ent-E, to travel back in the first place...

[Procutus]

King Daniel wrote:

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I go with the novelverse's interpretation - that the FC movie, the TCW stuff and the Xindi attack were always part of the Trek backstory, and it was these changes made to an earlier iteration of the timeline that created TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY in the first place.

Now that's an interesting thought. I haven't kept up with the novels now for a number of years, so I'm out of the loop on that theory. Do any of them propose what that earlier iteration of the timeline might've looked like, leading up to the 2260s? Any novel in particular I might want to read?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Nerys Myk wrote:

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Archer's ignorance of Klingon culture set Human/Klingon relations ( and by extension UFP/Klingon relations) off on the wrong foot and down the disaster path.

Exactly. Every time the Klingons showed up in ENT, I'd call the resulting events "disastrous" in the extreme. Archer pretty much did all the wrong things whenever he dealt with them (not surprising, since no human had any IDEA how to deal with Klingons).

[King Daniel Into Darkness]

Procutus wrote:

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Now that's an interesting thought. I haven't kept up with the novels now for a number of years, so I'm out of the loop on that theory. Do any of them propose what that earlier iteration of the timeline might've looked like, leading up to the 2260s? Any novel in particular I might want to read?

We never get any idea what the virgin timeline would have been like. It's just discussions from the DTI novel Watching the Clock, where one of the agents doubts their cause (why fight to keep prevent alterations in the timeline when you're living in a corrupted timeline to begin with?)

[Dale Sams]

My head is starting to hurt.

[lurok]

Timelines will do that to you. Best avoided

[Procutus]

King Daniel wrote:

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We never get any idea what the virgin timeline would have been like. It's just discussions from the DTI novel Watching the Clock, where one of the agents doubts their cause (why fight to keep prevent alterations in the timeline when you're living in a corrupted timeline to begin with?)

I've heard that novel recommended more than once. Definitely putting it on my To-Read List.

[The Wormhole]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote:

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It has been suggested that, had Picard and crew not appeared in the past of 2063 as shown in ST:FC, that the Mirror Universe resulted from it.

Meaning: the MU, and the resultant Terran Empire, is the 'natural' evolution of the timeline, and it was only Picard's interference from the future that created the 'good' regular universe. Not surprising, as in the 24th century of the MU there is no Empire, no Imperial Starfleet, and thus no mirror universe Ent-E, to travel back in the first place...

Problem is, there is divergence going back before 2063. According to Enterprise's two-parter, Earth literature is different between the two universes, the Prime's literature is "soft and weak" compared to the MU's. Except for Shakespeare, he's the same in both universes. There's a line stating the Terran Empire had already been around "for centuries."

Then there's my personal theory that Earth spins in the opposite direction in the MU (the sun rises in the west). I base this on the animated logo of the Terran Empire seen at the end of the Enterprise credits, which depicts Earth spinning in just a way. Hey, we've never seen which direction MU Earth spins on screen, who's to say it doesn't spin the opposite way?

[Procutus]

The Wormhole wrote:

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Problem is, there is divergence going back before 2063. According to Enterprise's two-parter, Earth literature is different between the two universes, the Prime's literature is "soft and weak" compared to the MU's. Except for Shakespeare, he's the same in both universes. There's a line stating the Terran Empire had already been around "for centuries."

I believe that what you're referring to there is from Diane Duane's TNG novel, 'Dark Mirror'. It's been years since I've read it, but I don't think this came from ENT's two-parter, as I've seen that about ten times.

[BillJ]

Procutus wrote:

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I believe that what you're referring to there is from Diane Duane's TNG novel, 'Dark Mirror'. It's been years since I've read it, but I don't think this came from ENT's two-parter, as I've seen that about ten times.

It's a discussion between Phlox and T'Pol.

[The Wormhole]

Procutus wrote:

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I believe that what you're referring to there is from Diane Duane's TNG novel, 'Dark Mirror'. It's been years since I've read it, but I don't think this came from ENT's two-parter, as I've seen that about ten times.

As mentioned above, Dr. Phlox makes that comment about Earth literature to T'Pol in PArt 2. They're in the Defiant's mess hall.

Diane Duane's Dark Mirror novel features a Shakespeare play which is very different from the actual version.

[Procutus]

OK my bad, I'm going to have to pull out my ENT DVD and watch that again. I seriously don't remember that being mentioned.

That aside, I agree with you totally that I always believed the MU to have existed completely parallel to ours, from the very beginning. No divergence in a timeline, just two independent universes that evolved differently (much like in Fringe).