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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old January 6 2013, 02:51 PM   #61
BillJ
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
He loved her.

He didn't care.

It was pure.

It was lovely.
It's not about that. I watch TV to be entertained, I've seen enough death brought on by cancer that I don't need it permeating my entertainment. YMMV.
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Old January 6 2013, 03:10 PM   #62
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

teacake wrote: View Post
I thought the scenes with a chemo-bald Roslin in bed with Adama were the single most romantic thing I've ever seen on a screen.
I found their final scene together very touching, and this is coming from someone who thinks that they should probably both have been lined up and shot an episode or two earlier. (Well, airlocked in the case of Roslin.)

Battlestar Galactica's value is more in short-term drama, exploration of hypothetical situations and exceptional delivery than it is in consistent narrative (at which it arguably fails spectacularly in terms of both story and characterisation). It's kind of like Breaking Bad with more 'splosions and a greater number of scumbags.

Seasons one and two are broadly considered to be the show's best period, and there's plenty of evidence for that. The intent was to reinvent TV space opera, and so there's more in the way of situational quasi-realism (finite resources, limited choices, immense pressure, no deus-ex-Machina technobabble) and behavioural naturalism (characters reacting less as if they were psychologically impervious and more like you would expect a real person to). The last, in my opinion, mutated into behavioural pseudo-naturalism as the show progressed and became more contrived. It became a case of having to jump through mental hoops in order to understand how a group of characters could actually be that delusional, vicious and self-destructive.

Personally, I think DS9 got the approach to storytelling just about right. Their problems aren't all just going away, but the stories exist as truth told through myth and with the attendant benefits of a fantastical setting. The protagonists behave better than they are obliged to, and I can just imagine how Sisko would react to the way things are done aboard the Galactica were Q to snap his fingers and allow him to trade places with Adama. Janeway I'm not so sure about. I think that if she swapped with Roslin then she'd make a pretty good job of it, considering the catastrophic effects of the latter's bigotry.

And either of them would need a good reason not to throw Helo in the brig or do something more permanent to him, but that's just common sense.
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Old January 6 2013, 03:20 PM   #63
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

All I know is that when I started rooting for the Cylons to wipe out humanity, it was time to bow out. Ron Moore seems to be good at writing dysfunction, but it can't be every characters defining quality.

The concept was post-apocalyptic humanity which is fine. But he seems to forget that even in the worst of times we adjust to the new "normal" of a given situation. He should have watched MASH and re-examined DS9 before heading off to write BSG. I saw the same things in Caprica, a shit load of people that just weren't worth giving a damn about.

Voyager had its problems, but I'd rather watch it than Moore's BSG anyday of the week.
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Old January 6 2013, 04:31 PM   #64
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

^ Agreed. I tried watching Moore's BSG but just couldn't get in to it for pretty much those reasons.
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Old January 6 2013, 09:50 PM   #65
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't give a shit what Moore thinks.

His runs on TNG and DS9 were seriously overrated and BSG had characters that were so screwed up that I just quit caring. It was like having a bunch of whiny Anakin Skywalker's.
That's insulting to Anakin Skywalker!
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Old January 6 2013, 09:53 PM   #66
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

Josan wrote: View Post
^ Agreed. I tried watching Moore's BSG but just couldn't get in to it for pretty much those reasons.
Which is completely understandable. A series that would please everyone would be terribly boring anyway.
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Old January 6 2013, 09:57 PM   #67
Guy Gardener
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

BillJ wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
He loved her.

He didn't care.

It was pure.

It was lovely.
It's not about that. I watch TV to be entertained, I've seen enough death brought on by cancer that I don't need it permeating my entertainment. YMMV.
We found out she was dying in the pilot. We assumed she was going to knock boots with Adama in the pilot as well. This bald bootie call happened half way through the last season. It was high time we saw some payoff on Rosilunds sunplots.
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Old January 6 2013, 09:59 PM   #68
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

BillJ wrote: View Post
All I know is that when I started rooting for the Cylons to wipe out humanity, it was time to bow out. Ron Moore seems to be good at writing dysfunction, but it can't be every characters defining quality.

The concept was post-apocalyptic humanity which is fine. But he seems to forget that even in the worst of times we adjust to the new "normal" of a given situation. He should have watched MASH and re-examined DS9 before heading off to write BSG. I saw the same things in Caprica, a shit load of people that just weren't worth giving a damn about.

Voyager had its problems, but I'd rather watch it than Moore's BSG anyday of the week.
Agreed. I still find it incredible that with all of Moore's talk of "realism", he failed to realize that a group of people THAT screwed up, would be incapable of running a fleet.

Or a vacum cleaner. Or a popcorn popper.

And I personally hope that Moore never writes for Star Trek again. Or, if he does, he's not the guy in charge.
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Old January 6 2013, 10:02 PM   #69
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

RandyS wrote: View Post
Agreed. I still find it incredible that with all of Moore's talk of "realism", he failed to realize that a group of people THAT screwed up, would be incapable of running a fleet.
"Failed to realize"? They ARE incapable of running a fleet. That's pretty much what the whole series is about!
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Old January 6 2013, 10:10 PM   #70
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

I loved what Ron did on BSG, and he was the biggest part of why DS9 was the best of Trek. I'd say his view of Voyagers issues was pretty spot on.

I thought Caprica stank though...
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Old January 6 2013, 10:33 PM   #71
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

BillJ wrote: View Post
All I know is that when I started rooting for the Cylons to wipe out humanity, it was time to bow out. Ron Moore seems to be good at writing dysfunction, but it can't be every characters defining quality.

The concept was post-apocalyptic humanity which is fine. But he seems to forget that even in the worst of times we adjust to the new "normal" of a given situation. He should have watched MASH and re-examined DS9 before heading off to write BSG. I saw the same things in Caprica, a shit load of people that just weren't worth giving a damn about.

Voyager had its problems, but I'd rather watch it than Moore's BSG anyday of the week.
I fully admit that between the schedule, sheer hatefulness of some of the characters and depressive nature...I quit the show at least twice, but it kept drawing me back in. I literally tuned back the second time at the exact instance that ****** killed ***self. But I tuned in too late to see who i was so Im spending the next five minutes going "WHO WAS THAT!!"

Despite my love/hate relationship, I still think it was some of the finest TV ever created.
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Old January 6 2013, 10:39 PM   #72
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

I watched BSG beginning to end with no problems. Yes, there's some seriously unlikeable and whiney characters in there, but ditto real life. Were some aspects disappointing? Sure. But when it was good, it was damn good. Esp. if ignore The Plan.

Didn't like Caprica trailer though or see appeal. I'll prob get round to watching sometime though, from curiosity if nothing else.
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Old January 6 2013, 10:54 PM   #73
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

Caprica is not as bad as they say, it's only really awful.
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Old January 6 2013, 10:57 PM   #74
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Caprica is not as bad as they say, it's only really awful.
I'm steeling myself as soon as finish Firefly. If boring, straight to Twin Peaks. Or Cleopatra 2525. Undecided at moment.
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Old January 6 2013, 11:00 PM   #75
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Re: Ron D. Moore about VOY

I agree that in the third season the dysfunction got a little out of hand.

But frankly I think "I watch for ENTERTAINMENT IT IS NOT ENTERTAINING" is the poorest criticism ever invented. Escapism is one of the purposes of television but not the only purpose, and it's not the job of TV writers just to cater to your personal preferences.

I also think "It does not have likable characters" is a poor criticism. Most TV shows have characters so gushingly likable it's borderline manipulation. Okay, so BSG wandered a bit too far in the other extreme after the New Caprica arc. Characters who were likable at the beginning like Cally and Tyrol migrated in the direction of just being irritated all the time. But if you can't find a person likable who isn't a perfect specimen of humanism when they're in a desperate situation, then well, you probably hate about 95% of the human race. I still liked most of the lead characters by the end, and the ones I didn't like such as Tigh I always found entertaining.

As for Moore's Star Trek work, when I look through the episodes he wrote I'm far more impressed by his TNG resume than his DS9 one. It seemed like he was just spearheading all the klingon episodes and some of the crappy holodeck ones.

But if you look at his TNG resume: The Defector, Yesterday's Enterprise, Sins of the Father, Family, Reunion, Redemption, Disaster, The Next Phase, Chain of Command Part I, Tapestry, Gambie Part II, The Pegasus, All Good Things. A lot of the best episodes in the series have his name in the writing credits.

I will say, yes, it looks like most of the best DS9 eps go to Behr, Echevarria, Biemler, Wolfe, and Fields.

Caprica's problems had more to do with the fact that the characters had less justifiable reasons to be terrorists and the complete and utter lack of plot direction.
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