Harrison in the Prime Universe

[BillJ]

Melakon wrote:

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Maybe it's not Gary, but someone else from the original episode. Two hundred years earlier, the captain of SS Valiant destroyed the ship due to the danger of one individual. We don't know if he successfully eliminated the threat. Maybe that individual doesn't get a name until now.

That's a hell of a good point.

[Dale Sams]

Melakon wrote:

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Maybe it's not Gary, but someone else from the original episode. Two hundred years earlier, the captain of SS Valiant destroyed the ship due to the danger of one individual. We don't know if he successfully eliminated the threat. Maybe that individual doesn't get a name until now.

Not a bad idea. In the Nutimeline, the Enterprise responds to the Valiant's distress signal and rescues Harrison...etc..etc..Kirk ignores all the warning signs or Spock's advice...etc..

[BillJ]

Dale Sams wrote:

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Not a bad idea. In the Nutimeline, the Enterprise responds to the Valiant's distress signal and rescues Harrison...etc..etc..Kirk ignores all the warning signs or Spock's advice...etc..

That kind of ignores the fact that he's a Starfleet officer. He would've had to have survived the explosion of the Valiant and rejoined under a different name.

[Dale Sams]

BillJ wrote:

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That kind of ignores the fact that he's a Starfleet officer. He would've had to have survived the explosion of the Valiant and rejoined under a different name.

In this speculation, I'm throwing away the 200 years ago thing.

[starburst]

BillJ wrote:

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If they had a great story that focused on Mitchell, they would use Mitchell regardless of the comics. And the comics are not canon.

That would make sense if the comics had come out before the movie was written, but as Orci is involved in writing both and they have said a couple of times it is supposed to fill in some of the time before the two movies its unlikely he would use the same villan twice.

That is unless Mitchell undergoes some sort of Time Lord style Regeneration too.

JarodRussell wrote:

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Well, that alternate universe story isn't thought through. Any sort of big villain would almost certainly have operated in the Prime universe as well.

Possibly, but as Spock said in the first movie a new timeline means a completely new chain of events, this would mean that what happens to Harrison in this timeline may not have happened in the original one meaning he did not turn bad...we wont know until the film and we learn those motives the Cumberbatch talked about.

[Oso Blanco]

starburst wrote:

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That would make sense if the comics had come out before the movie was written, but as Orci is involved in writing both and they have said a couple of times it is supposed to fill in some of the time before the two movies its unlikely he would use the same villan twice.

Thank you for making that point. I'm really sick and tired of making it myself again and again. The comics may not be a hundred percent canon, but they will not violate major plot points of the movie!

[Procutus]

Oso Blanco wrote:

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Kirk and Mitchell knew each other in this timeline as well, and Mitchell died. It has been covered in the Ongoing comics, which are supposed to be more or less canon.

And even if they weren't, I doubt that Orci as a creative consultant would have greenlighted the comic if he had such a radically different story in mind for the movie. Even if Mitchell came back from the dead, Kirk WOULD know who he is.

Plus, as near as I can tell from watching both versions of the trailer, there's no evidence showing that Kirk DOESN'T know who Cumberbatch is. Assuming for a moment that he really could be Gary Mitchell, using an assumed name, the reveal of this almost certainly would be Kirk coming face to face with him and realizing that Mitchell had come back from the dead (assuming that two-part comic version of WNMHGB was in fact, backstory to the film).

A lot of speculation, I'll admit, but that was what this thread was all about. There's plenty of room to do that in between now and May 17.

[UFO]

I don't feel the villian is Mitchell or someone like him. Cumberbatch's villain is said to have a "cause" and have a very good handle on right and wrong. Not something you could say about Mitchell, post transition. He had little regard for morality or loyalty etc. Presumably the SS Valiant villain would be similar.

While both might be upset at humans trying to kill them, it would appear to be rather a Basil Fawlty type revenge (thrashing your car with a tree branch) from their POV . You might as well take revenge on an ant colony. That seems fairly petty and doesn't sound like the sort of motive we are hearing about.

Combine the above with Karl Urban's "joke" that it was Mitchell and I think the odds of it being him or even someone similar are rather long.

[Therin of Andor]

BillJ wrote:

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If they had a great story that focused on Mitchell, they would use Mitchell regardless of the comics. And the comics are not canon.

But... Orci helped IDW select the episodes to be remade, to enhance his own plans for the new movie. They may not ne canonical, but Orci wants them and other tie-ins to be consistent with the live-action stuff.

[Nerys Myk]

JarodRussell wrote:

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Well, that alternate universe story isn't thought through. Any sort of big villain would almost certainly have operated in the Prime universe as well.

Why? Its not the same timeline and therefore the same set of events would not have occurred. What ever sets off John Harrison may never have happened in the Prime Universe.

[Procutus]

Nerys Myk wrote:

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Why? Its not the same timeline and therefore the same set of events would not have occurred. What ever sets off John Harrison may never have happened in the Prime Universe.

This makes a great deal of sense, assuming the events that set him off take place after the divergence in the timeline.

[Nerys Myk]

Procutus wrote:

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This makes a great deal of sense, assuming the events that set him off take place after the divergence in the timeline.

The divergence happened the day Jim Kirk was born, so it's pretty likely that most of John Harrison's life happened afterwards.

[Procutus]

Nerys Myk wrote:

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The divergence happened the day Jim Kirk was born, so it's pretty likely that most of John Harrison's life happened afterwards.

Unless Harrison is some form of augment, and ages at a slower rate than the average human. But all things being equal, I tend to agree that you're right.

[Dale Sams]

Procutus wrote:

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Unless Harrison is some form of augment, and ages at a slower rate than the average human. But all things being equal, I tend to agree that you're right.

Also, just because I like to be nitpicky:

Universe 1: Kirk through Picard (including when Picard says FC with the Klingons was a disaster)

Universe 2: When the future guys attack the Klingon in Broken Bow, and...hey now FC doesn't resemble anything like what Picard said.

Universe 3: When Future Guy saves the NX-Enterprise, from a fate he says originally happened. (btw, My theory on who Future Guy was? Archer.)

Universe 4: 7 million Earthers are killed.

Now how many of these, if any, are predestination paradoxes? No clue. Which timeline does Old Spock come from? Doesn't matter. I'm just saying anything resembling canon is long gone.

[Nerys Myk]

Dale Sams wrote:

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Also, just because I like to be nitpicky:

Universe 1: Kirk through Picard (including when Picard says FC with the Klingons was a disaster)

Universe 2: When the future guys deposit the Klingon in Broken Bow, and...hey now FC doesn't resemble anything like what Picard said.

Same universe. Earth's FC with the Klingons was a disaster and got worse each time Archer and the Klingons met. It also happened centuries before the TNG time frame. So it's two for two regarding Picard's statement.

First Contact wrote:

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Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war.

The last part is unknown, as we've no idea what happened in the decades between ENT and TOS. We also don't know which first contact with Klingons Picard was refering too. Could have been the first contact between the Klingons and Vulcan for all we know.

Finally, the guy who wrote the line in "First Contact" said Enterprise's take works fine with what was said. You may know him as My Name Is Legion, but mostly we call him "Dennis".