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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 5 2013, 07:25 AM   #31
Gary7
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Dr. Korby wasn't there. Only a shadow of his former self. What's so "perfect" about this moment in the episode, is when Roger kills himself along with Andrea. This less than human version of himself still has some of the flesh-and-blood Roger's mind... enough to realize that in becoming an android he had indeed lost himself. To what end? He realized that he could never be his original self. Christine could see right through him. Now he was nothing more than a machine. And so he self terminated.
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Old January 5 2013, 02:16 PM   #32
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Or, the girl he loved dumped him, so, being so thoroughly human despite the machine body, he killed himself.

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Old January 5 2013, 02:49 PM   #33
Mister Atoz
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

By the same token, could Kirk prove to Korby that HE was not just intelligent, but also conscious? How would he do it?

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Old January 5 2013, 05:52 PM   #34
Dale Sams
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
By the same token, could Kirk prove to Korby that HE was not just intelligent, but also conscious? How would he do it?

~ Atoz
Either Korby was too far gone when he made the transfer, or the transfer is imperfect OR he went cookoo waiting on a ship to come by.

1) "I'll hold the Captain prisoner, show him my work and expect him to surreptiously help me build more androids so they can infiltrate society, AND at some point push my agenda for people to project themselves into androids. Then we'll program out everything *I* think is harmful." ...that's a little crazy. Also:

2) Christine said he wouldn't harm a fly. But at the end when everything is falling apart, he gives Andrea a weapon and tells her to go kill whoever is in the outer junction.

Personally I still think the tragic resonance of the ep is "Dr. Korby isn't here. He never was." And we as viewers taking in that all that was left of that civilization is gone now.
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Old January 6 2013, 02:40 AM   #35
Mister Atoz
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Dale, what I'm saying is, there's no way to prove humans OR androids are conscious. Conscious awareness cannot be proven. It can only be believed. You can prove intelligence by giving a Turing Test, but you can't prove conscious awareness.

Korby can ask the REAL captain Kirk if Kirk has conscious awareness. There's no way Jim Kirk can prove it to Korby, either.. NOW, do you understand?? ;o)

~ Mr Atoz




Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
By the same token, could Kirk prove to Korby that HE was not just intelligent, but also conscious? How would he do it?

~ Atoz
Either Korby was too far gone when he made the transfer, or the transfer is imperfect OR he went cookoo waiting on a ship to come by.

1) "I'll hold the Captain prisoner, show him my work and expect him to surreptiously help me build more androids so they can infiltrate society, AND at some point push my agenda for people to project themselves into androids. Then we'll program out everything *I* think is harmful." ...that's a little crazy. Also:

2) Christine said he wouldn't harm a fly. But at the end when everything is falling apart, he gives Andrea a weapon and tells her to go kill whoever is in the outer junction.

Personally I still think the tragic resonance of the ep is "Dr. Korby isn't here. He never was." And we as viewers taking in that all that was left of that civilization is gone now.
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Old January 6 2013, 03:49 AM   #36
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

I believe that there is a sensible way to prove consciousness. If a freshly made android (computer in humanoid shaped body) could develop self interests beyond the basics (more than just survival and prosperity) and empathy/compassion for sentient beings without having beneficial dependencies to itself, all self learned (without any programming assistance), I'd feel safe in calling it sentient. We actually run on a biologically formed program that was initially written by our genetic coding and then has been continually augmented from the moment of birth up through every living day. We are directly taught some things, but a majority of what we learn is all about self interpretation of incoming stimulus.

Dr. Korby was sentient. But I believe he discovered that he had lost some of his essence. He became aware that his "soul" hadn't carried over, making him a mere copy. His consciousness was mostly copied, but not completely transferred. That's my take on it... I'm not saying it's fact, because the episode is too ambiguous for a definitive answer.
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Old January 6 2013, 03:58 AM   #37
Mister Atoz
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Great, I love discussing this issue with you. It's like the cavernous pit that Kirk's security man falls into....There's no hope of resolving this question, Captain, it's bottomless...

~ Atoz




Gary7 wrote: View Post
I believe that there is a sensible way to prove consciousness. If a freshly made android (computer in humanoid shaped body) could develop self interests beyond the basics (more than just survival and prosperity) and empathy/compassion for sentient beings without having beneficial dependencies to itself, all self learned (without any programming assistance), I'd feel safe in calling it sentient. We actually run on a biologically formed program that was initially written by our genetic coding and then has been continually augmented from the moment of birth up through every living day. We are directly taught some things, but a majority of what we learn is all about self interpretation of incoming stimulus.

Dr. Korby was sentient. But I believe he discovered that he had lost some of his essence. He became aware that his "soul" hadn't carried over, making him a mere copy. His consciousness was mostly copied, but not completely transferred. That's my take on it... I'm not saying it's fact, because the episode is too ambiguous for a definitive answer.
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Old January 6 2013, 10:49 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Korby's is a situation any man could find himself in after, say, major surgery or divorce or loss of job. Is he still the same man? Having factually lost something (say, a leg), is he a lesser being now? Friends have difficulty hiding their revulsion over the visible change - should he wait till that blows over, or is it time to google for "hangman's knot"?

The transformation into a machine man gives this particular take an interesting flavor, but it isn't all that exceptional a situation deep down.

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Old January 6 2013, 12:02 PM   #39
scotpens
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Timo wrote: View Post
Korby's is a situation any man could find himself in after, say, major surgery or divorce or loss of job. Is he still the same man? Having factually lost something (say, a leg), is he a lesser being now?
That question is dealt with at some length in the cheaply made but intelligently written Creation of the Humanoids (1962). It's worth a look if you've never seen it.

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But Korby wasn't really alive to begin with: "Doctor Korby was never here." That turned out to be the whole point.
How much of that is true, and how much just Chapel's racist revulsion at the concept of Korby having replaced his body with machinery?
In what way was her reaction "racist"? I suppose you could say it was "fleshist."
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Last edited by scotpens; January 6 2013 at 12:14 PM.
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Old January 6 2013, 04:08 PM   #40
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

^...Just in the umbrella sense in which things are considered "racist" today. That is, finding truly racially distinct features in the Irish or the Poles is much more difficult than inventing Irish or Polish jokes.

I suspect that a whole family of segregationist-degradatory subcategories will emerge once humans seriously begin to turn to cyborgs, ranging from the shunning of those with visible alterations to the hatred towards those with invisible mental boosting. But "racist" is still bound to cover most of them nicely.

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Old January 7 2013, 02:27 AM   #41
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
Great, I love discussing this issue with you. It's like the cavernous pit that Kirk's security man falls into....There's no hope of resolving this question, Captain, it's bottomless...
There's no need to get snide with biting sarcasm.

The point I'm trying to make is that if there's a program so sophisticated as to fully convince a highly qualified sentient individual that a given being is indeed sentient, then it is. The sophistication required is intrinsically the function of sentience.

So yes... sentience can be put on an assembly line. Human beings have done that by simply procreating a biological manifestation.
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Old January 7 2013, 08:27 AM   #42
Mister Atoz
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Gary -- No biting sarcasm or insult intended. Love your avatar by the way!

~ Mister Atoz, the genuine replica


Gary7 wrote: View Post
Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
Great, I love discussing this issue with you. It's like the cavernous pit that Kirk's security man falls into....There's no hope of resolving this question, Captain, it's bottomless...
There's no need to get snide with biting sarcasm.

The point I'm trying to make is that if there's a program so sophisticated as to fully convince a highly qualified sentient individual that a given being is indeed sentient, then it is. The sophistication required is intrinsically the function of sentience.

So yes... sentience can be put on an assembly line. Human beings have done that by simply procreating a biological manifestation.
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Old January 10 2013, 08:06 PM   #43
AtoZ
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
Great, I love discussing this issue with you. It's like the cavernous pit that Kirk's security man falls into....There's no hope of resolving this question, Captain, it's bottomless...
There's no need to get snide with biting sarcasm.

The point I'm trying to make is that if there's a program so sophisticated as to fully convince a highly qualified sentient individual that a given being is indeed sentient, then it is. The sophistication required is intrinsically the function of sentience.

So yes... sentience can be put on an assembly line. Human beings have done that by simply procreating a biological manifestation.
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Old January 10 2013, 08:42 PM   #44
JimZipCode
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
Dale, what I'm saying is, there's no way to prove humans OR androids are conscious. Conscious awareness cannot be proven. It can only be believed. You can prove intelligence by giving a Turing Test, but you can't prove conscious awareness.

Korby can ask the REAL captain Kirk if Kirk has conscious awareness. There's no way Jim Kirk can prove it to Korby, either.
Not relevant, though. If the old Korby wouldn't kill a fly, and the new Korby doesn't seem to value human life (ordering killings etc), then Korby is gone, changed beyond recovery, whether the android has consciousness or not.
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Old January 29 2013, 03:43 PM   #45
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Sentience is relevant to the Dr. Noel or Andrea question. "Sexy" is more a behavior than a physical attribute. Both Marianna Hill and Sherry Jackson have the physical attributes in spades. But Helen is a lively and provocative tease (until Kirk wakes up from Adams' treatment all wound up and ready to go), while Andrea comes across as a lifeless sex toy.

Change the comparison to Dr. Helen Noel or Effra from the LOST IN SPACE episode "The Space Croppers," and suddenly the decision becomes a case of the donkey that starved to death between two bales of hay.

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