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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old January 4 2013, 10:13 PM   #31
DonIago
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Re: After Romulus

One could just as easily argue that in CotEoF Kirk et al. return to a different-yet-remarkably-similar alternate timeline, of course. Same goes for FC.

The only "fool-proof" way we've seen of determining one's "timeline-of-origin" is by checking quantum signatures, as established in Parallels, and we don't see any such check performed in either of the above cases.
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Old January 4 2013, 10:45 PM   #32
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Re: After Romulus

Anal probing works as well - it was shown in that episode where McCoy and Kirk look really uncomfortable.
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Old January 5 2013, 01:40 AM   #33
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Re: After Romulus

King Daniel wrote: View Post

I'd survive if the 2387 supernova was only vaguely alluded to in passing (which is what I suspect will happen), but I would be annoyed if the novelverse ignored events of the movie althogether (which is unlikely since they've already included several easter egg references to it)
I don't think Romulus being destroyed should only be vaguely alluded to. It's the homeworld of one of the major powers in the galaxy, and one of the main Trek aliens from the show. This would be a huge thing to happen, both in-universe and out.

I wouldn't be happy at all with it only being vaguely alluded to.
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Old January 5 2013, 02:44 AM   #34
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Re: After Romulus

Christopher wrote: View Post
Not to mention that, since it is all just a bunch of stories anyway, those stories aren't going anywhere. As long as you can still watch the episodes and movies and read the old books, nothing's been "erased."
I see this argument made a lot, like when DC wiped out their continuity from the last few decades. But some of the value in stories like Star Trek comes from the knowledge that the characters continue on after the show/movie ends.

Watch the final scene of the TNG finale. Now imagine that right after the episode ended, the entire universe blinked out of existence. Doesn't that take away from the warm fuzzy feeling you get? The feeling that this family is going to continue on, possibly being closer than they were before because of Picard's experiences -- that's gone. Sure, there's plenty of other stuff to enjoy, but one major element is gone.

That's why people care whether stories "count" or "still exist." It's not because they worry their DVDs or comics might disappear. It's because part of what the value from those stories may be gone.
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Old January 5 2013, 03:09 AM   #35
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Re: After Romulus

Ben wrote: View Post
I see this argument made a lot, like when DC wiped out their continuity from the last few decades. But some of the value in stories like Star Trek comes from the knowledge that the characters continue on after the show/movie ends.
And they do. It's been stated over and over again for three years now that the makers of the Abramsverse intended the new timeline to coexist with the old one, not erase it. The way DC chose to do things has nothing to do with how Bad Robot chose to do things.
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Old January 5 2013, 03:39 AM   #36
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Re: After Romulus

Am I the only one who doesn't assume the destruction of Romulus is an automatic given in the main continuity we've been following all these years?
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Old January 5 2013, 03:46 AM   #37
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Re: After Romulus

cml898 wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who doesn't assume the destruction of Romulus is an automatic given in the main continuity we've been following all these years?
A number of people see it the same way you do, but it doesn't track with what we know. The intent of the filmmakers was that Spock Prime came from the same reality we've been following from the start -- that Romulus was destroyed in that reality, causing Nero and Spock Prime to go back in time and split off a new, altered reality in parallel with it. The whole reason they included the time-travel aspects and coaxed Leonard Nimoy out of retirement was to make the new timeline a direct continuation/offshoot of the old rather than something completely unconnected to it. If that hadn't been their intention, they wouldn't have bothered with all that messy time travel at all. The Spock that Nimoy played in 2009 is the same Spock he's been playing since 1964. He's just living in a different timeline now. But that only happened because Romulus was destroyed in his original timeline.
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Old January 5 2013, 04:06 AM   #38
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Re: After Romulus

Which sucks. :/
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Old January 5 2013, 05:47 AM   #39
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Re: After Romulus

Never expected to get so much response to a simple question. Given the events that have happened in the novels thus far I see no way that they avoid the destruction of Romulus.
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Old January 5 2013, 06:21 AM   #40
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Re: After Romulus

Christopher wrote: View Post
The way DC chose to do things has nothing to do with how Bad Robot chose to do things.
Especially since DC repeatedly wipes out its entire continuity, ALL THE FUCKING TIME. They don't let three or four years go by before they do some damned 'Crisis' that resets everything back to square one. And they keep doing it. There was Crisis on Infinite Earths, then Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Flashpoint, New 52, ad nauseum. So they don't have the chance to build up anything meaningful anymore, because we all know they're just going to reset the whole damned thing again.

Nothing about the Abramsverse is even close to this level. That timeline can coexist with the prime one; can't say the same thing in DC, not by a long shot.
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Old January 5 2013, 07:58 AM   #41
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Re: After Romulus

Christopher wrote: View Post
cml898 wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who doesn't assume the destruction of Romulus is an automatic given in the main continuity we've been following all these years?
A number of people see it the same way you do, but it doesn't track with what we know. The intent of the filmmakers was that Spock Prime came from the same reality we've been following from the start -- that Romulus was destroyed in that reality, causing Nero and Spock Prime to go back in time and split off a new, altered reality in parallel with it. The whole reason they included the time-travel aspects and coaxed Leonard Nimoy out of retirement was to make the new timeline a direct continuation/offshoot of the old rather than something completely unconnected to it. If that hadn't been their intention, they wouldn't have bothered with all that messy time travel at all. The Spock that Nimoy played in 2009 is the same Spock he's been playing since 1964. He's just living in a different timeline now. But that only happened because Romulus was destroyed in his original timeline.
T'Bonz wrote: View Post
Which sucks. :/
It does suck, I agree. It sucks Romulus has been destroyed and it sucks that Spock is probably forever gone from the "prime" timeline. However, the books managed to make great opportunities out of the mess Nemesis left behind and I can only hope the books will do the same with the destruction of Romulus when they "catch up" with that moment in the timeline.
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Old January 5 2013, 08:15 AM   #42
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Re: After Romulus

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The way DC chose to do things has nothing to do with how Bad Robot chose to do things.
Especially since DC repeatedly wipes out its entire continuity, ALL THE FUCKING TIME. They don't let three or four years go by before they do some damned 'Crisis' that resets everything back to square one. And they keep doing it. There was Crisis on Infinite Earths, then Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Flashpoint, New 52, ad nauseum. So they don't have the chance to build up anything meaningful anymore, because we all know they're just going to reset the whole damned thing again.

Nothing about the Abramsverse is even close to this level. That timeline can coexist with the prime one; can't say the same thing in DC, not by a long shot.
That's what parallel Earths are for. One upon a time DC's Golden Age continuity ( or a reasonable facsimile) existed in a parallel universe. With an infinite number of universes out there, all of DC's various continuities can co-exist.
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Old January 5 2013, 10:19 AM   #43
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Re: After Romulus

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The way DC chose to do things has nothing to do with how Bad Robot chose to do things.
Especially since DC repeatedly wipes out its entire continuity, ALL THE FUCKING TIME. They don't let three or four years go by before they do some damned 'Crisis' that resets everything back to square one. And they keep doing it. There was Crisis on Infinite Earths, then Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Flashpoint, New 52, ad nauseum. So they don't have the chance to build up anything meaningful anymore, because we all know they're just going to reset the whole damned thing again.

Nothing about the Abramsverse is even close to this level. That timeline can coexist with the prime one; can't say the same thing in DC, not by a long shot.
That's what parallel Earths are for. One upon a time DC's Golden Age continuity ( or a reasonable facsimile) existed in a parallel universe. With an infinite number of universes out there, all of DC's various continuities can co-exist.
The parallel universe system is based on the many worlds theory - which states that for any possible outcome of every wave-function collapse, a new 'world' is created.
Which means that any possible course of action happens.
Which in turn means that any decision the DC or Trek characters - or you or I, for that matter - make is meaningless; it's not a choice but a 'world' (existing alongside ALL possible worlds) you just happen to be in, before you again are fragmented into countless universes at the next wave-function collapse (the next thermodynamically irreversible quantum event - which includes every single choice).


PS - The many worlds theory manages to solve the measurement problem only if for EVERY SINGLE wave-function collapse possible outcome, a new 'world' is created.
If, even for one such wave-function collapse possible outcome, a new 'world' is not created, the many worlds theory doesn't solve the measurement problem any longer - becoming useless as an explanation.
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Old January 5 2013, 08:38 PM   #44
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Re: After Romulus

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
That's what parallel Earths are for. One upon a time DC's Golden Age continuity ( or a reasonable facsimile) existed in a parallel universe. With an infinite number of universes out there, all of DC's various continuities can co-exist.
Well, yeah, but they already had as many parallel worlds as they wanted - even before the Crisis on Infinite Earths. That series was supposedly created to *eliminate* all of those parallel universes and combine them into one coherent new one. (Zero Hour was apparently for cleaning up the mess afterwards.) But they ended up bringing them all back anyway, so what's the point?
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Old January 5 2013, 09:37 PM   #45
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Re: After Romulus

^The point is, partly, that they don't assume the same people are reading comics decade after decade. The reboots are usually done in order to make the continuity more accessible to new readers, to make a fresh start as a jumping-on point for an audience that might otherwise be scared off by all the complicated backstory. Comics have a lot of trouble attracting new readers these days, so they'll do whatever they think can help them do so, even at the risk of alienating the old guard.

In particular, the New 52 reboot was done for the sake of the emerging digital comics market, to allow digital-only readers who were trying the comics for the first time to come in at the beginning of the story rather than having to come in at the middle and play catch-up. Although exceptions were made for the already highly popular stuff like Grant Morrison's Batman and Geoff Johns's Green Lantern, which were allowed to keep their continuities and story arcs largely intact.

Although usually what happens is that new readers don't come onboard to the extent they were hoping, while the established fanbase continues to read the comics, and new creators and editors come in who were fans of comics growing up and want to read stories like the classics, so they reintroduce the old ideas that previous creators and editors got rid of.
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