Purposing Federation Ships During the Dominion War

[AllStarEntprise]

^ You know I hated how both the Enterprise and the Odyssey were taken down without anything resembling a fight. Like we saw in earlier TNG and later during the Dominion War. The Galaxy class has 12 type X phaser arrays and 2 torpedo bays that can fire 10 photon torpedoes simultaneously at 10 different targets. Yet neither the Odyssey nor the Ent unloaded any of their stockpile of torpedoes on the Jem'Hadar or that ONE FRAKKING bird of prey. What were the writers/producers thinking? Looking at you Berman >_>

[R. Star]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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^ You know I hated how both the Enterprise and the Odyssey were taken down without anything resembling a fight. Like we saw in earlier TNG and later during the Dominion War. The Galaxy class has 12 type X phaser arrays and 2 torpedo bays that can fire 10 photon torpedoes simultaneously at 10 different targets. Yet neither the Odyssey nor the Ent unloaded any of their stockpile of torpedoes on the Jem'Hadar or that ONE FRAKKING bird of prey. What were the writers/producers thinking? Looking at you Berman >_>

In the Jem'Hadar, I'd imagine they were looking at the figures for their special effects budget.

Generations had no excuse though. I honestly would've rather seen the Enterprise fight the uphill battle against the odds straight up then just shoot once then technobabble their way through it like they did.

[jpch]

AllStarEntprise wrote:

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^ You know I hated how both the Enterprise and the Odyssey were taken down without anything resembling a fight. Like we saw in earlier TNG and later during the Dominion War. The Galaxy class has 12 type X phaser arrays and 2 torpedo bays that can fire 10 photon torpedoes simultaneously at 10 different targets. Yet neither the Odyssey nor the Ent unloaded any of their stockpile of torpedoes on the Jem'Hadar or that ONE FRAKKING bird of prey. What were the writers/producers thinking? Looking at you Berman >_>

well on both occasions the Jem'hadar and BOP are firing at the ships without shields or penetrating them,and hitting the Engineering/warp core section repeatedly so its most likely that the ships were low on power and barely can defend themselves...

[Vanyel]

The Enterprise was also caught in orbit with little room to maneuver. Except for the first strike, the Duras' were behind the Enterprise. While the Enterprise does have full spherical coverage, she doesn't have full power coverage in that sphere. There has been no on screen evidence that the aft launcher could fire a 10 torpedo burst, so that is just way aft coverage is less than bow coverage.

The torpedoes are said to have guidance systems, but I do not believe we have seen then deviate much out of the direction of the launcher on any ship. In otherwards we have never seen a forward launched torpedo circle around and strike a target behind the ship. Even the 1701A with its newly installed plasma sensors never circled around 1701A. When fired, on screen evidence shows a conical firing pattern. Not sure if I'm describing that properly but forward torpedoes fire like this ">" aft like this "<". The aft torpedoes have a larger cone of fire since they don't have to clear the saucer before moving up (relative to the ship). Forward launcher should probably be on, or near, the leading edge of the saucer both dorsal and ventral sides to eliminate that problem. Still could keep the one on the neck, for when the saucer separates

[Timo]

The torpedoes are said to have guidance systems, but I do not believe we have seen then deviate much out of the direction of the launcher on any ship.

Apart from the corkscrewing homing torpedo of ST6:TUC, the new torpedoes of the Galaxy class did impressive zigzags in "Genesis". Granted, they weren't supposed to, but while the guidance system was faulty, the ability to maneuver was inherent in the torpedo and should thus be available in fighting situations as well.

Also, whenever the E-D fired spreads of torpedoes in TNG (fairly rarely, mainly in "Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise"), the torpedoes executed remarkably sharp turns.

However, another fact we learned about Galaxy class torpedoes, in several episodes including "Q Who?" and "New Ground", was that they could not be used at short distances without being destructive to the firing ship as well. This would completely rule out their use in "Jem'Hadar" where the enemy swarmed the ship at point blank ranges. A homing torpedo could quite possibly track the enemy and score a kill, but at the cost of severe damage to the Odyssey as well, not to mention to the runabouts. (Runabouts supposedly were armed with torps in this battle as well, and if those were of a smaller and lesser type, they might have been used to effect. But it might well be that a target that cannot be hurt by the perfectly scoring main phaser beam of a Galaxy isn't going to pay much attention to the torpedo of a runabout-sized craft - a weapon doing fairly little damage in episodes like "The Maquis".)

In ST:GEN, torpedoes eventually were used at the ranges utilized previously in the fight. And the aft launcher was used, proving its continuing functionality. However, for all we know, the aft launcher was repeatedly used in the fight, of which we only saw a small fraction: sounds of weapons firing were heard on the bridge even when the camera didn't give us external views of torpedoes leaving the ship.

It's just that the BoP had shields that withstood far more than they were supposed to, taking even the Klingon sisters by elated surprise. Apparently, Soran had worked some of his techno-magic on them, just like he effortlessly whipped up eavesdropping devices and starkiller weapons going beyond UFP technological knowhow.

Timo Saloniemi

[Vanyel]

Timo wrote:

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Apart from the corkscrewing homing torpedo of ST6:TUC, the new torpedoes of the Galaxy class did impressive zigzags in "Genesis". Granted, they weren't supposed to, but while the guidance system was faulty, the ability to maneuver was inherent in the torpedo and should thus be available in fighting situations as well.

An out of control torpedo may not be the best way to make a point and it still fell within the forward direction. It was basically a bottle rocket running every which way.

Timo wrote:

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Also, whenever the E-D fired spreads of torpedoes in TNG (fairly rarely, mainly in "Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise"), the torpedoes executed remarkably sharp turns.

Not that remarkable, in The Arsenal of Freedom, the torpedoes fired out in an arc along the plane of the launcher. In Yesterday's Enterprise, they clustered together before spreading apart (once they cleared saucer), and again they kept a regular conical firing arc.

Timo wrote:

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However, another fact we learned about Galaxy class torpedoes, in several episodes including "Q Who?" and "New Ground", was that they could not be used at short distances without being destructive to the firing ship as well. This would completely rule out their use in "Jem'Hadar" where the enemy swarmed the ship at point blank ranges. A homing torpedo could quite possibly track the enemy and score a kill, but at the cost of severe damage to the Odyssey as well, not to mention to the runabouts. (Runabouts supposedly were armed with torps in this battle as well, and if those were of a smaller and lesser type, they might have been used to effect. But it might well be that a target that cannot be hurt by the perfectly scoring main phaser beam of a Galaxy isn't going to pay much attention to the torpedo of a runabout-sized craft - a weapon doing fairly little damage in episodes like "The Maquis".)

In Q Who? it was a stated that without the shields the torpedoes could destroy the Enterprise. My knowledge of New Ground is lacking, so to that point I cannot speak. In The Jem'Hadar the Odyssey could have used her torpedoes, were they guided, right away. The Runabouts broke clear of the Odyssey giving her plenty of room. The one Jem'Hadar ship that hit the nacelle flew away from the Runabouts. If they could guide a torpedo then that would have been the one to hit. But the forward launchers torpedo would have had to exit at a nearly 90 degree angle from the launcher to hit the Jem'Hadar ship. A torpedo from the aft launcher would have had to circle back around the Odyssey.

I maintain that since we've never seen the torpedoes strike a target to the side of their ship, the have limited guidance system and only have a conical area in which they can be used.

Timo wrote:

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In ST:GEN, torpedoes eventually were used at the ranges utilized previously in the fight. And the aft launcher was used, proving its continuing functionality. However, for all we know, the aft launcher was repeatedly used in the fight, of which we only saw a small fraction: sounds of weapons firing were heard on the bridge even when the camera didn't give us external views of torpedoes leaving the ship.

That The Enterprise weapons systems were fully functional I have no doubt. A small bit of dialogue from Worf or Data saying shield control systems were off line, could have been the thing that kept the Enterprise from rotating her shields frequency while the BoP could keep rotating hers back and forth as she fired.

Timo wrote:

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It's just that the BoP had shields that withstood far more than they were supposed to, taking even the Klingon sisters by elated surprise. Apparently, Soran had worked some of his techno-magic on them, just like he effortlessly whipped up eavesdropping devices and starkiller weapons going beyond UFP technological knowhow.

Timo Saloniemi

Easier, I think, to say that the Enterprise lost control of the shields and they were stuck at that frequency. The BoP was able to switch her shields back and forth keeping her safe.

[Photon]

R. Star wrote:

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That was shocking enough as it was. Sure it was a guest star ship, but it was a Galaxy class, which was the baddest ship out there at the time. I was fully expecting them to get away and them was just like.... ... when the Jem'Hadar ship kamikazed them.

Had the Enterprise been there, and been destroyed I probably would have screamed at the TV... and I don't know if that's good or not. Killing off the whole TNG cast would've been WAAAY too much, but it would've been equally as lame if all of them somehow lived. So perhaps using the guest star ship was the best move.

The they wouldn't have had an ENT for Generations. Which mighta been a good thing.

[Vanyel]

Photon wrote:

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The they wouldn't have had an ENT for Generations. Which mighta been a good thing.

To be fair, the Odyssey took a heavy pounding and was withdrawing from battle. It is quite possible the Dominion could have let them go with their tails tucked between their legs, knowing that a message had indeed been sent. The New Bajor colony destroyed and the Galaxy class Odyssey heavily damaged and only got away because it was let go.

To quote The Changing Face of Evil:

Female Changling: No. Let them return to the Federation. Those pods are filled with frightened, demoralized troops.

Weyun: Troops that will spread fear throughout the Federation with tales of what happened here today. The Founder is wise.

They just decided to really send the message home, so there would be no doubt to their message.

[Timo]

in The Arsenal of Freedom, the torpedoes fired out in an arc along the plane of the launcher.

Indeed - an extremely acute arc. Had they simply kept on turning that way, they could have headed in any direction they pleased. And there's no good reason to think that a torpedo that can make a sharp 50 degree turn couldn't make

a) a sharp 550 degree turn or
b) five hundred consecutive 50 degree turns.

So torpedoes have amply demonstrated the ability to head in any desired direction, making the direction of the launch tube quite irrelevant. For example, Kirk in "The Changeling" shoots over his shoulder, ordering a target at 123.18 to be hit by a torpedo from a forward tube (as confirmed by the visual of the departure, and the dialogue reference to #2 torpedo, which was among the forward tubes listed in "Journey to Babel" along with #4 and #6).

My knowledge of New Ground is lacking, so to that point I cannot speak.

Shields at 12% encouraged our heroes to fire yield 16 torps at a range of 23 kilometers, but they were being too optimistic and suffered major damage from this.

We don't know what yield 16 means - is it a lot or a little? Yield 5 was a little in "Redemption II", but that doesn't help much since we never heard what yield 1 would mean. What our heroes were trying to do was to disperse a shockwave capable of shattering a planet, though, so "a lot" would make more sense than "a little" in the context.

In any case, the whole battle in "Jem'Hadar" took place at ranges much shorter than twenty clicks, and would probably have blown even fully shielded runabouts to smithereens from the possible hits on Jem'Hadar ships.

we've never seen the torpedoes strike a target to the side of their ship

We were told that this happened in "The Changeling", and we saw a hit that was actually better than that in ST6...

That The Enterprise weapons systems were fully functional I have no doubt.

Why? The ship was being blasted to bits, so loss of weapons would only be a natural assumption. Indeed, Riker ordered a spread of torpedoes to be prepared for the final desperate attempt to destroy the Duras sisters, but when Worf hit the trigger, only a single torpedo was fired from the aft tube...

A small bit of dialogue from Worf or Data saying shield control systems were off line, could have been the thing that kept the Enterprise from rotating her shields frequency while the BoP could keep rotating hers back and forth as she fired.

Why should we assume that shield rotation would

a) help at all against an enemy other than the Borg, or
b) not be taking place throughout the battle?

Every time the E-D rotated shields, it would be LaForge rotating them, and telling the Durases the new setting.

We have seldom heard of any opponent adjusting weapons frequency to penetrate shields, supposedly because it's impossible to know the shield frequency of the opponent unless one has a traitor aboard. But shield rotation at best keeps the enemy from utilizing a weakness. It doesn't increase the overall strength of the shields beyond their natural maximum. The BoP had feeble shields according to all the experts in the movie, on both sides: both the Klingons and the Starfleeters were convinced the ship could offer no resistance to the E-D. When it did, then, something must have been changed by some unexpected agent. Soran is the obvious suspect.

Timo Saloniemi

[jpch]

For me i will always regret not having seen the Sovereigns,Intrepid,Prometheus classes in the Dominion War,it was very weird having them in the Movies other series...it was a huge problematic for them to say and i quote :

''The Enterprise-E is the most advanced starship in the fleet.'' (First Contact)

''Prometheus class designed for deep space tactical missions''. (VOY ''message in a bottle'')

''Intrepid class,designed for combat performance''.
(VOY ''Thaw'')

yet Starfleet does not use them.
i think the only thing logical to comfort my mind i could think about is that all 3 classes were used but not on screen.

[Timo]

I'm not sure those attributes would necessarily make the ships special.

I mean, surely Starfleet would build every starship class to be the most advanced ever? Surely all of them would be designed for deep space tactical missions? And surely none of them would be designed for musical performance?

Timo Saloniemi

[jpch]

Timo wrote:

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I'm not sure those attributes would necessarily make the ships special.

I mean, surely Starfleet would build every starship class to be the most advanced ever? Surely all of them would be designed for deep space tactical missions? And surely none of them would be designed for musical performance?

Timo Saloniemi

of course not, ex :ships like the Nova are designed for short range planetary research stated on screen not long range tactical missions.
not every ship was designed for the same things but in the Dominion war all ships were used because they were desperate.

[AllStarEntprise]

What i like best about NEM is that it shows just how tough the ENT-E is. In an uphill battle trying to fight and enemy they can't see, that is 3x the size of the ENT-E with 3x the fire power and 2x the shield power the ENT-E has. After the massive pounding the ENT-E takes from the Scimitar, having 2 large parts of the Valdore ship careen it to it, the enterprise starts taking physical damage with parts of the hull being blown away. This is right before Troi uses her telepathy to find the Scimitar and they do an awesome blitz on it with phasers, quantum and photon torpedoes. Had this been a fair fight, and by fair I mean no cloak the ENT-E could've come out triumphant.

During the Dominion campaign something as badass as the Sovereign or Prometheus would clean Dominion battleships. Phased Polaron weapons be damned!

[Timo]

What i like best about NEM is that it shows just how tough the ENT-E is.

...Or, more probably, what a softie Shinzon was.

After all, he wanted to get Picard alive. He couldn't go all-out on the E-E, as his only known means of getting Picard were to get Picard to surrender, or to slip a boarding party aboard. He tried the softest way first, disabling the starship's warp drive with demonstrated ease and then talking to his "dad". Only when daddy showed the first signs of actually being able to fight back (with the Troi trick) did he upgrade to the boarding party trick, and he accomplished that trivially easily, by immediately blasting a hole in Picard's shields in a location least likely to directly harm Picard.

When the boarding party got stuck, it appears Shinzon gave up, and chose to ignore Picard's safety - at which point he again quite easily destroyed half the bridge of the E-E, and rendered the E-E unbattleworthy. The fight was over, Shinzon won. And then our heroes turned the tables, using means other than the weapons of their unexceptionally performing starship to wrestle victory out of Shinzon's hands after all.

Timo Saloniemi

[AllStarEntprise]

^ I'll remind you that despite targeting weapons and shields only the scimtar never made the ENT-E lose shield or weapons. Tactically speaking the Scimitar is a fiercer fighting machine. But a large part of the ENT-E disadvantage was it couldn't target the Scimitar. Imagine a sniper camped 200 yards away with a thermal scope taking shots at a battalion of troops with only moon and starlight to aid the troops. Of course the sniper is going to score more fatalities and injuries. He's shooting a people that can't see and have to wait for the flashes of his rifle to go off before they can attempt any attacks.

Let's not forget how easily a Dominion Battlecruiser that is 2x the size and 3x as strong as a Galaxy class ship, stomped the Defiant class Valiant. The Sovereign class is roughly the same size as a Galaxy class. The Valiant had a technobabble weapon and it still suffered a crushing defeat. Hell against 3 Jem'Hadar ships the Defiant was nearly blown apart with all hands lost. The only thing that saved the Defiant in "The Search" and not the crew of the Odyssey in "Jem' Hadar" was the magical plot device known as "Hero Shields".


As noted the Scimitar is 3x the size of the ENT-E, with 52 disruptors (ENT-E has 16 phasers), 27 photon torpedo bays (ENT-E has 9 photon and 1 quantum), primary and secondary shields (ENT-E only has primary but also abalative armor), a perfect cloak and a planet engulfing thalaron biogenic weapon.

Given the circumstances I doubt any single ship could do better than the ENT-E did. Best the ENT-E could manage was a stalemate but attempting a kamikaze attack. Another great thing about the NEM fight is there is no technobabble fix to get the cloak deactivated or the shields down.