The Impossible Girl: Who IS Clara Oswin Oswald?!?

[Sindatur]

Christopher wrote:

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I never said "plucked out of time." What I meant, and evidently didn't convey clearly enough, was that the war was waged non-linearly, that it explicitly involved going back and rewriting past events to undo defeats, so we can't assume that just because we saw a given Time Lord alive at a given point in history, that means that event is still part of the post-Time-War history.

Remember "Genesis of the Daleks?" The Time Lords sending the Doctor back into Skaro's past with instructions to prevent the Daleks from ever being created in the first place? That episode is retroactively regarded as the opening salvo of the Great Time War, and similar tactics were probably used routinely by both sides once the war was in full gear. So yes, it does seem likely that many of the combatants were not merely killed, but erased entirely. That's only to be expected when you're talking about a time war.

Yes, I know about Genesis of the Daleks being Retconned as the opening Salvo in the Time War. I fail to see how, even if The Dalek Invasion was erased, or changed so they would win, it would in anyway erase Susan from time? The Doctor didn't make that TARDIS trip to fight the Daleks, his TARDIS took him there and it just so happened he ran into the Daleks there. Susan still would've gone with him and may or may not have met her Husband, but, if she hadn't met her husband, how would that result in her erasure from time? Some action would've had to have been taken against her existence to wipe her out. Anything not directly aimed at Susan that erased her because of a change to the way the Invasion played out, would've erased the Doctor also, since they traveled there together, not beause of the Invasion, but, simply by chance

There were no Daleks, in anyway involved in Romana's trip to the Warrior's Gate, so what woul've caused her erasure?

Now, again, I freely admit, in these cases, I seriously doubt Romana and Susan wouldn't have rushed home to join the fight, if possible, but, if they didn't how would they have been erased from time by changing events where we last saw them?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Sindatur wrote:

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None of that says a thing about Time Lords who were off planet being plucked out of time?

I see that you have cleverly avoided to address the point I've raised: why would he call himself the Last of the Time Lords if he were not the last of the Time Lords?

[Sindatur]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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I see that you have cleverly avoided to address the point I've raised: why would he call himself the Last of the Time Lords if he were not the last of the Time Lords?

Why would he say they're all dead, if they really aren't, but, actually Time Locked instead? Why would he say he destroyed them all or killed them all, when he really didn't?

Obviously he wasn't the Last of the Timelords, since he ran into The Master a few times, and of course, there's Jenny (Who, admittedly he doesn't know is alive) and the Tme Head he's married to

[Alidar Jarok]

I don't think Time Locked and dead are different. They died in the Moment. It's just that the time lock prevented them from escaping or being rescued before the moment.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Sindatur wrote:

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Why would he say they're all dead, if they really aren't, but, actually Time Locked instead? Why would he say he destroyed them all or killed them all, when he really didn't?

For all intents and purpose, they're dead. They're gone, they can't be reached, the Doctor will never see them, they're caught in a loop and will never do anything productive ever again.

Whether you like it or not, the writers' clear intent is that the Doctor is the last of his kind, not that there are lots of Time Lords out there and that only those who were on Gallifrey during the Time War vanished. Otherwise the whole thing has no dramatic weight.

[Christopher]

Sindatur wrote:

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I fail to see how, even if The Dalek Invasion was erased, or changed so they would win, it would in anyway erase Susan from time?

As I've already explained to you, that is not what I meant in the first place. That's just your misunderstanding of what I meant. I'm not going to defend a position I never actually took.

Anything not directly aimed at Susan that erased her because of a change to the way the Invasion played out, would've erased the Doctor also, since they traveled there together, not beause of the Invasion, but, simply by chance

You're overthinking it. As I already said, Doctor Who is a tall tale written to appeal to the imagination of a child. It's not supposed to hold up to detailed logical analysis. Of course it doesn't make sense. Doctor Who has never really made sense, especially not where temporal physics or causality came into play. Things happen however the story needs them to happen. Russell T. Davies needed the Doctor to be the last Time Lord, and that's the entire explanation for why he's the last Time Lord.

[Sindatur]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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For all intents and purpose, they're dead. They're gone, they can't be reached, the Doctor will never see them, they're caught in a loop and will never do anything productive ever again.

Whether you like it or not, the writers' clear intent is that the Doctor is the last of his kind, not that there are lots of Time Lords out there and that only those who were on Gallifrey during the Time War vanished. Otherwise the whole thing has no dramatic weight.

OK, let me clarify my position on a couple of things:

1. I do not believe there are lots of them running around. We know TARDISes were tightly regulated, and running around the Universe freely was frowned upon while Time Lord Society was existent. So, there wouldn't be that many running around in the first place. And, many of those who were running around the Universe freely would have rushed straight home to join the fight. Someone like the Rani (or The Master if he wasn't enticed by the promise of more Regenerations), would've stayed out of it, and could still be out there.

2. Time-Locked is not dead, it's frozen in a moment of time, or outside of time or whatever, and they've already escaped from it once, and Daleks have escaped from it, so, although an almost inescapable prison, it's not actually DEAD.

3. Yes, I realize the Writers' intent is to remove them from the playing field, but, it's not necessarily a permanent situation, there is a loop hole if they choose to use it. If they really, really wanted them dead, they would have been killed, the planet would've blown up, instead of Time Locked. RTD chose to Time-Lock them instead of killing them, so, they could be played with as in The End of Time (Plus The Master and the Daleks returning)

[Christopher]

I think you misunderstand time-locking. It's discussed in the Wiki link I provided in post 148. Alidar Jarok has the right of it. They were all killed. The time lock is a barrier that prevents the Doctor from going back to those events to alter the outcome.

Put another way, it's the same reason the Doctor can't go back to Manhattan and retrieve Amy and Rory. It's a plot device to explain why he can't use time travel to fix the problem. The Time War, like 20th-century Manhattan, is inaccessible to the TARDIS. He can't get there, can't save anyone from what happened there. So they're dead to him, just like Amy and Rory are. The difference being that the time lock blocks everyone (with one exception that barely succeeded), not just the Doctor's TARDIS.

[Sindatur]

Christopher wrote:

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As I've already explained to you, that is not what I meant in the first place. That's just your misunderstanding of what I meant. I'm not going to defend a position I never actually took.

Then what position did you take? How could changing events erase her from where the Doctor left her, without erasing him? They always give some kind of explanation, even if it does disagree with prior "canon"

[Sindatur]

Christopher wrote:

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I think you misunderstand time-locking. It's discussed in the Wiki link I provided in post 148. Alidar Jarok has the right of it. They were all killed. The time lock is a barrier that prevents the Doctor from going back to those events to alter the outcome.

Put another way, it's the same reason the Doctor can't go back to Manhattan and retrieve Amy and Rory. It's a plot device to explain why he can't use time travel to fix the problem. The Time War, like 20th-century Manhattan, is inaccessible to the TARDIS. He can't get there, can't save anyone from what happened there. So they're dead to him, just like Amy and Rory are. The difference being that the time lock blocks everyone (with one exception that barely succeeded), not just the Doctor's TARDIS.

The Wiki is not the show, that's someone' interpretation. What we see on screen, is Timelords and Daleks have escaped from the Time-Lock, it is not death, it is a prison, locked in a moment of time, and is escapable, as shown onscreen

I never claimed he could reach them, I said Tme-Loked is not dead, as has been shown onscreen

[The Mirrorball Man]

Sindatur wrote:

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1. I do not believe there are lots of them running around. We know TARDISes were tightly regulated, and running around the Universe freely was frowned upon while Time Lord Society was existent. So, there wouldn't be that many running around in the first place. And, many of those who were running around the Universe freely would have rushed straight home to join the fight. Someone like the Rani (or The Master if he wasn't enticed by the promise of more Regenerations), would've stayed out of it, and could still be out there.

2. Time-Locked is not dead, it's frozen in a moment of time, or outside of time or whatever, and they've already escaped from it once, and Daleks have escaped from it, so, although an almost inescapable prison, it's not actually DEAD.

3. Yes, I realize the Writers' intent is to remove them from the playing field, but, it's not necessarily a permanent situation, there is a loop hole if they choose to use it. If they really, really wanted them dead, they would have been killed, the planet would've blown up, instead of Time Locked. RTD chose to Time-Lock them instead of killing them, so, they could be played with as in The End of Time (Plus The Master and the Daleks returning)

I think we're talking about different things here. My intent is not to rain on your parade. I you want to believe that Susan or Romana or other Time Lords are still out there, that's of course fine with me.

I don't really care for the in-universe situation, to be honest, because the Doctor Who universe doesn't actually exist. The only things that exist are writers, what they have written and what they intend to write in the future. For now, the Doctor is the Last of the Time Lords. It means that there are no other Time Lords, otherwise what is supposed to be tragic would just be a sitcom-level silly misunderstanding. Clearly, that is not what was intended by Russell T. Davies & Co.

And yes, of course it may not be a permanent situation. Nothing is permanent in serialized fiction. Any writer could bring the Time Lords back in any kind of ways, and whether they're dead or not doesn't change a thing. In an anything-goes fictional universe like the Doctor Who world, nothing prevents anything from happening. But for now, that has not happened, and from the show's point of view, the Doctor is unambiguously the last of the Time Lords, i.e. the only one.

[Sindatur]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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I think we're talking about different things here. My intent is not to rain on your parade. I you want to believe that Susan or Romana or other Time Lords are still out there, that's of course fine with me.

Sigh, I've said at least 3 times, I don't believe Romana or Susan would've stayed out of the fight, that I believe they would've rushed home, how does that translate into me believing Susan or Romana are still out there?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Sindatur wrote:

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Sigh, I've said at least 3 times, I don't believe Romana or Susan would've stayed out of the fight, that I believe they would've rushed home, how does that translate into me believing Susan or Romana are still out there?

I apologize. As I said, I don't care, you can believe whatever you want. That's not what I was talking about anyway.

[Christopher]

Sindatur wrote:

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Then what position did you take? How could changing events erase her from where the Doctor left her, without erasing him? They always give some kind of explanation, even if it does disagree with prior "canon"

I'm not going to repeat myself. I never proposed a scenario like you're discussing here. You made it up, so if you want it explained, you make up an explanation. It's got nothing to do with me.

Sindatur wrote:

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The Wiki is not the show, that's someone' interpretation. What we see on screen, is Timelords and Daleks have escaped from the Time-Lock, it is not death, it is a prison, locked in a moment of time, and is escapable, as shown onscreen

You're completely missing the point. It's time travel. That means that if someone died in the past, you can theoretically go back in time to before they died and save them, just as we've seen in countless time-travel stories over the decades, such as Star Trek Voyager's "Timeless" or Back to the Future Part III. Time-locking is a mechanism to explain what's preventing the Doctor from doing that, why he can't go back and undo the deaths.

Of course if you go back in time to before someone died, they'll still be alive at that point and you can rescue them. That's what you're perceiving as "escaping" the time lock. But that doesn't mean they didn't die. Doc Brown died in the Old West, then Marty McFly went back in time and saved him, so he was alive again. That's what the Doctor could've done if there hadn't been a time lock -- go back and undo the deaths of the Time Lords. But the time lock keeps him from doing that, just as the block on Manhattan keeps him from rescuing Amy and Rory.

[Sindatur]

Christopher wrote:

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I'm not going to repeat myself. I never proposed a scenario like you're discussing here. You made it up, so if you want it explained, you make up an explanation. It's got nothing to do with me.

You said the Time War spilled over to over places, erasing whole world from existence, therefore She would be erased, what else could that possibly mean?

Sindatur wrote:

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The Wiki is not the show, that's someone' interpretation. What we see on screen, is Timelords and Daleks have escaped from the Time-Lock, it is not death, it is a prison, locked in a moment of time, and is escapable, as shown onscreen

They escaped from within the Time Lock themselves, they couldn't have done that if they were dead. When did we see someone Time Travel to before they were dead to rescue them?