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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 4 2013, 12:12 AM   #16
BillJ
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

They're both great episodes with beautiful women and strong guest actors. I refuse to chose one.
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Old January 4 2013, 01:27 AM   #17
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

But NOOOOO! Instead he can't resist barging in on Kirk in the chair, and giving him a full dose. There's no plan, he's just lost all perspective and impulse control. Perhaps he can't abide the "aberrant behavior" of people out of control, wandering the corridors and breaking into rooms in HIS facility. Perhaps he's really excited by the chance to show off his toy's capabilities on a strong-minded starship captain. Whatever his motive, it's all downhill from there.
We could argue that neither Lethe nor van Gelder are good examples of what Adams intends to achieve with the chair - or what he is capable of achieving on a good day.

Lethe might be an early experiment, and for that reason rather lethargic. And Adams more or less tried to murder van Gelder, as there was nobody there to stop him or catch him in the act. Kirk would need to be treated with finesse, as his return to the starship as a zombie or a raving lunatic would not work well, and yet he had to return somehow. But what if Adams indeed were to convince Kirk that everything is fine, by using the Neutralizer at high power but with expertise?

We never learn that Adams could not have turned Kirk into a loyalist who would nevertheless be fit to return to duty as a starship captain. Despite the high setting, he is neither blandly amnesiac nor raving at the end of the day, merely convinced that he is in love with Noel; a good prognosis considering Adams' likely plans.

Sure, Adams has a hammer and sees a lot of nails. But he could nail Kirk, or at least would be entitled to thinking that he could. He need not be cacklingly irrational, but merely suffering from some tunnel vision.

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Old January 4 2013, 02:00 AM   #18
HGN2001
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

I think I prefer DAGGER. I'm not sure if DAGGER was rerun during the first summer between Seasons 1 and 2, and I on;y started watching STAR TREK in earnest with the original telecast of "City On The Edge Of Forever".

So my recollection is that "What Little Girls Are Made Of" aired that summer, so I saw it pretty early. "Dagger Of The Mind" didn't get seen by me until the syndication reruns started, so it was one of the few "new" episodes I saw after the show left NBC. That left a positive impression on me. Otherwise, I'd rate them about the same, though the Helen Noel factor is strong...

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Old January 4 2013, 07:11 AM   #19
Gary7
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

I don't see how anyone could casually put one before the other. They're both terrific episodes, each offering their own merits. I adore Helen Noel, despite Andrea being a very, very close second. But I had the most fun with "Little Girls". There's just something so cool about seeing Ruk (Lurch). And I like that peculiar feeling of Shatner's portrayal of "duplicate" Kirk aboard the Enterprise. So, if I was forced to pick just one to watch, it would have to be that. Dagger was still great though.
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Old January 4 2013, 02:08 PM   #20
Haggis and tatties
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

I love both episodes but i will give you a small clue to my fave.....

"Now this thread is going to have a complete demonstration, I want there to be no doubts whatsoever in this thread".
You're all madly in love with this thread,You'd all lie, cheat, steal for it, sacrifice your career, your reputation, a ban from this site..."
(machine to maximum)
"The pain. Do you feel it posters? You must have this thread, or the pain grows worse, the pain, the longing for this thread....For years, you've loved this episode, for years.
You must continue to remember that posters....



And now, its gone.



So any idea which episode is my fave. lol
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Old January 4 2013, 02:21 PM   #21
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

That's a nice safety feature for a very dangerous device, BTW: a light that says "off" when lit.

Makes perfect sense. This machine should never be on by accident. You can see from a safe distance if the big light is not glowing, and then something is wrong: either the machine is accidentally on, or then the light has burned out. That's much safer than having a light that says "on" when lit, because a burned-out light might then hide the fact that the machine is active and dangerous!



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Old January 4 2013, 03:25 PM   #22
gottacook
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Mister Atoz wrote: View Post
the ultimate death and destruction of said scientist.
But Korby wasn't really alive to begin with: "Doctor Korby was never here." That turned out to be the whole point.

My favorite part of "Little Girls" was the shot of Christine Chapel the first instant she sees Korby - say what you will about Ms. Barrett's acting ability, she manages in those few wordless seconds to convey Christine's feeling at that moment such that it really comes through the TV screen.

On the whole I prefer "Dagger" because it's a better story and because Adams is a genuinely evil guy. (Mr. Gregory is also great in the Night Gallery segment "Stop Killing Me" with Geraldine Page.)
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Old January 4 2013, 05:25 PM   #23
scotcat
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

While these are both excellent episodes, I have to say my preference is Dagger of the Mind.
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Old January 4 2013, 06:22 PM   #24
Mister Atoz
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Timo and Haggis -- ROFL!

~ Mr Atoz



Timo wrote: View Post
That's a nice safety feature for a very dangerous device, BTW: a light that says "off" when lit.

Makes perfect sense. This machine should never be on by accident. You can see from a safe distance if the big light is not glowing, and then something is wrong: either the machine is accidentally on, or then the light has burned out. That's much safer than having a light that says "on" when lit, because a burned-out light might then hide the fact that the machine is active and dangerous!



Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 4 2013, 07:43 PM   #25
AtoZ
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

I credit Mister Atoz with some fine observations where these two similar episodes are concerned, but if I were to make a serious choice I'd have to go with Dagger of the Mind by a very very close margin.

Both had excellent guest stars. One had the spinning light while the other had the spinning bed. Both featured perhaps two of the sexiest, most alluring characters in the entire series. The tie breaker for me is Spock. In one he was an after thought and a dimensionless device for "discovery" whereas in the other, we learned something very important about Vulcans and there was added color as the layers of deceit were uncovered.

Flipping back to "What are Little Girls Made Of".....we got one last cherished look at the old style phasers.

Too bad Eddie Paskey didn't really figure into either of these episodes. Seeing him in a given episode helps me keep it real.

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Old January 4 2013, 09:47 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

But Korby wasn't really alive to begin with: "Doctor Korby was never here." That turned out to be the whole point.
How much of that is true, and how much just Chapel's racist revulsion at the concept of Korby having replaced his body with machinery? Certainly Korby was "there" to a significant degree, passing the Turing test with flying colors, demonstrating the full factual knowledge of the man, and behaving like one would expect from a man like that if one didn't know him intimately. And Chapel knowing him intimately might make her eminently unqualified to utter insults like that. (Okay, it's Kirk's rephrasing of something Chapel said earlier on, but still.)

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Old January 4 2013, 09:59 PM   #27
JimZipCode
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Timo wrote: View Post
... and behaving like one would expect from a man like that if one didn't know him intimately. And Chapel knowing him intimately might make her eminently unqualified to utter insults like that.
That's having it both ways. If it takes someone who knows him intimately to tell the difference, and if knowing him intimately disqualifies an observer, then we might as well just replace everybody with androids that are "close enough" to the original. Any difference doesn't matter.

We have to defer to the person who knows him intimately, even if we wonder about their judgment.
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Old January 4 2013, 10:50 PM   #28
Dale Sams
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

Who is Andrea? An android Roger created without a template to give it emotions?

As for, "Is Korby an android that thinks it's Korby, or actually has Korby's soul"

I'm not a computer.
Test me.
Ask me to solve any--
Equate--
Transmi--
Hamfisted as hell, but the point the dialogue is making is that he is not Korby.
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Old January 4 2013, 11:41 PM   #29
Mister Atoz
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

DearZip code

~ The question is not whether or not an android can pass the turing test or can be detected to be a machine. The question WALGMO begs is ....can a machine have consciousness? And Korby zeroes in on the problem -- proving it.

How can one prove or disprove consciousness? I'll go one step further -- there's no way to prove that living things are "conscious". From a scientific standpoint,we're all just grey matter with blood running through it. So what? What does that prove? (as McCoy said, we're all just 3 or 4 pounds of chemicals -- just add water.)

It's a religious question. Why are WE "conscious" and yet an android with all the sense organs, all the same memory we have -- why is such a machine NOT conscious? Can it be proved or disproved? This is the much more compelling question behind "Little Girls".

The episode doesn't solve the issue, but it makes you think.

~ Mister Atoz (the real Mr. Atoz ;o) )


JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
... and behaving like one would expect from a man like that if one didn't know him intimately. And Chapel knowing him intimately might make her eminently unqualified to utter insults like that.
That's having it both ways. If it takes someone who knows him intimately to tell the difference, and if knowing him intimately disqualifies an observer, then we might as well just replace everybody with androids that are "close enough" to the original. Any difference doesn't matter.

We have to defer to the person who knows him intimately, even if we wonder about their judgment.
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Old January 4 2013, 11:46 PM   #30
Timo
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Re: Little Girls or Dagger of the Mind -- which do you like better

We have to defer to the person who knows him intimately, even if we wonder about their judgment.
Why? If A says that B is an asshole, this may well be an objective fact if A isn't B's embittered lover, but is highly unlikely to be objectively true in the opposite case. Insults are an extremely unreliable type of evaluation...

Had, say, Brown lived to tell the tale, we might have trusted his judgement a bit better, as passions (in a 1960s TV show) wouldn't run as high between these two males unless we were given hints of a love triangle or some such.

There's a reason why self-evaluation isn't a popular business practice, and why outside consulting services are valued!

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