Now That John Logan Has Proven Himself, What Went Wrong With Nemesis?

[Will Riker]

Perhaps. But it's one of those things that has to be executed flawlessly to not come across as silly and trite.

I think therein lies the problem. I think it's a good premise that needed passionate writers, director, and editing team behind it. The pieces were there though.

Err, Stewart has never been an A-list actor, and Hardy was a nobody at the time.

Hardy's talent was still there and it showed. I think he played that part about as well it could have been played for the material he was given. Maybe "A-list" wasn't the right term, he's definitely a top notch actor though.

I disagree. Your scenario only works if Lore is somehow involved to provide counterpoint: as in, he struggles with this brother because the last one turned out so bad. Also, if the Data/B4 dyad was intended to work as a thematic parallel to Picard/Shinzon, it still would have worked better as Lore.

Really there's no reason plot-specific for them to NOT have used Lore. I mean, if the Rommies had the foresight to clone Picard when he was still relatively insignificant, surely they could have smuggled Lore's parts out of Daystrom. In fact, I have no doubt the only reason B4 was created in the first place is to give Data his own "Remember..."

I think B4 before would have worked much in the same way Lal worked in "The Offspring". Data had worked so hard trying to evolve and become more human throughout the show and he finally found something in B4 that he thought he could have a human sibling relationship with that wouldn't disappoint him. He had been disappointed with his father, with his mother, with his brother, and with his daughter, but now he's found a raw android just like himself that he could program and teach to be just like him. The scene where Data has to deactivate B4, Spiner played that perfectly and it gave us a glimmer of the story they were trying to tell.

[GalaxyX]

Everything about the film would have been forgivable if Data hadn't been killed off.

[Lance]

GalaxyX wrote:

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Everything about the film would have been forgivable if Data hadn't been killed off.

Data's death (and the inclusion of B4) does rather have the feeling of being "one ingredient too many", doesn't it? What Nemesis truly needed to be was a top core political thriller, but all the mucking about, trying to make consessions to Brent Spiner's ego, unfortunately meant that it got weighed down with a subplot that was counter-intuitive to the main plot.

I am an apologist for Nemesis, though. I don't think there's anything in particular about the movie which couldn't be fixed with a substantive re-edit.

[Zeppster]

Honestly Data's death could have worked if it was done a bit better. The reason Spock's death scene worked so good is because we had a moment just before his death where not only Kirk feels his death but everyone does. It's the quintessential scene in all of Trek history. Instead in Nemesis he basically transports Picard away with no real emotion and no real goodbye. This is a character that they had built for 15 years at the time. And was the most popular and probably well built character of TNG. And his goodbye is just a look.

Again the reason it doesn't work is because they missed something in a draft. Which is basically what you can say about how the entire movie is written be it the relationship between Picard and Shinzon which falls flat because instead of being something interesting Shinzon is a typical bad Bond villain. The B4 and Data thing being a brother type relationship because after B4 is found out Data basically disowns him. Or the million other plot holes in the film.

[GalaxyX]

Lance wrote:

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Data's death (and the inclusion of B4) does rather have the feeling of being "one ingredient too many", doesn't it? What Nemesis truly needed to be was a top core political thriller, but all the mucking about, trying to make consessions to Brent Spiner's ego, unfortunately meant that it got weighed down with a subplot that was counter-intuitive to the main plot.

I am an apologist for Nemesis, though. I don't think there's anything in particular about the movie which couldn't be fixed with a substantive re-edit.

I think the biggest problem is that the movie ended up horribly depressing. Like some bad guy just shot your dog. That's how I walked out of the theater that day, with that feeling.

The movie was standard dumb action flick (one of the lower budget ones), and most of it would have been passable if it had ended on a cheerful note. Having a victorious comeback for Data would have done it. Not the lame "B4 is the new Data" they did.

[Dale Sams]

GalaxyX wrote:

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Everything about the film would have been forgivable if Data hadn't been killed off.

As I said in another thread, having finally seen all of it, instead of just parts...It's better than the reviews. It's just kind of pointless, and hollow. But it's only cringeworthy moment is the desert chase (and to a lesser degree the 'we should give Riker something to do fight')

Whereas Insurrection had plenty of cringeworthy moments.

It's certainly not so bad that it should have done that poorly at the box office. I didn't pay to see it based on the bad buzz and "Clones?? Again? And another Data? ugh." But surprisingly I found Shinzon to be fine and his B4's trope was inverted so he was fine too. Being a backdoor for Data's return was kind of dumb, and frankly...if I were a crewmember...knowing that Data's engrams overwrote B4, I still couldn't treat Data as B4 the same.

[GalaxyX]

Dale Sams wrote:

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As I said in another thread, having finally seen all of it, instead of just parts...It's better than the reviews. It's just kind of pointless, and hollow. But it's only cringeworthy moment is the desert chase (and to a lesser degree the 'we should give Riker something to do fight')

Whereas Insurrection had plenty of cringeworthy moments.

It's certainly not so bad that it should have done that poorly at the box office. I didn't pay to see it based on the bad buzz and "Clones?? Again? And another Data? ugh." But surprisingly I found Shinzon to be fine and his B4's trope was inverted so he was fine too. Being a backdoor for Data's return was kind of dumb, and frankly...if I were a crewmember...knowing that Data's engrams overwrote B4, I still couldn't treat Data as B4 the same.

This is *exactly* my problem with B4. The whole point for his existance was for him to be a backdoor to bring Data back, but it just doesn't because of this particular reason. He could never be "Data" even if he has the same memories.

The movie had other major issues, and I've seen the movie 3 times now. The first time I felt like I got sucker punched and couldn't really think straight other than nausea. The second time I realized the whole movie had a forced dark theme to it, and it wasn't just Data's death, but the whole depressing way the movie ended. TNG went out not with a bang, but with a whimper.

I remember watching Star Trek 6, and even though it was a bit depressing to know that this was probably the last time we would see those characters on screen, we were given an ending that kept them together as a family, and even a "ride into the sunset" theme.

Why couldn't TNG finish off like that? Get rid of B4 completely, and have Data appear alive and well at the end, and that would have fixed 50% of the shit as it was filmed.

I agree Patrick and Spiner's ego ruined the film though, it's their interference that caused the major issues with the story as told.

[Dale Sams]

Well, it's too bad because I think the 'wedding toast' scene is one of the best Star Trek scenes I've ever seen. I would not be surprised in the slightest to find out that Patrick wrote it and actually got drunk to say it.

I don't even know that Data's death and the dissolution at the end is a bad thing. The death is very TNG, sudden. The aftermath is very understated rather than a big Spock send-off.

I don't...understand really...all the fingerpointing. If we're giving Frakes a rightful pass for Insurrection, then I don't see what Baird did that was so wrong. I think the film *looks* great. The script is okay so we can't really blame Logan.

Honestly, if this were the last TNG series episode....people would be saying "Holy shit, that was dark"...and it would go down as one of the boldest things in sci-fi history.

I guess if I could only change one thing it would be to take out the backdoor and let B4 stand as himself. Of course seeing Picard drop off Data's mentally challenged brother at The Daystrom Institute would only make the film darker. I guess it would give Data's death more emotional resonance. Seeing B4 wave at the camera/Picard as the shuttle pulls away would work.

[jpch]

Well the only movie that felt like a TNG post series movie was Generations the other 3 seem very different,i really have no idea why people hated Nemesis,for it was a very good Star Trek movie,of course it was different and more action oriented but it still had some of the main Trek concepts.
I actually wonder why people hated Nemesis and loved the JJ reboot...lol the JJ Trek had nothing to do with Star Trek

[Flake]

I havent read the thread, but the biggest nitpicks for me are:

NO LORE, instead we get fucking B4... the adult baby
NO TOMALOK, why?!?!?! FFS we end up with Donatra... even Sela would be better.
NO TNG WARBIRDS, perhaps the most badass alien ship design in Science-Fiction.

Add on top of that the general stupidity of the script & the utterly idiotic mad max shit in the Argo.

[JarodRussell]

But, but the audiences would have been too stupid to grasp that Data has an evil twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by the crew. It was easier to grasp that he has a stupid twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by Romulans.

The audience would have been to stupid to get that Picard has a little bit of history with a Romulan Admiral. It was easier to get that theres a Romulan Commander he has no history with.

[Dale Sams]

JarodRussell wrote:

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But, but the audiences would have been too stupid to grasp that Data has an evil twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by the crew. It was easier to grasp that he has a stupid twin built by Dr. Soong and disassembled by Romulans.

The audience would have been to stupid to get that Picard has a little bit of history with a Romulan Admiral. It was easier to get that theres a Romulan Commander he has no history with.

I think Tomalak would have worked fine, but would have preferred Donatra over Sela.

[jpch]

I honestly think Star Trek fans are a bit obsessive ...
''there is no D'Derix Warbird omg!!!! the movie sux''
lol

[GalaxyX]

jpch wrote:

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I honestly think Star Trek fans are a bit obsessive ...
''there is no D'Derix Warbird omg!!!! the movie sux''
lol

Well as a TNG fan, I can only speak for myself, but, you know, being TNG movies, I wanted to see TNG stuff in them.

This is how I remember the entire TNG movie series in checklist form:

1. Kill Kirk. Check
2. Destroy the Ent-D. Check
3. Replace with hideous looking ship with insect like nacelles. Check.
4. Give us a 15 second taste of a Borg battle, then spend 1 1/2 hours with a drunk loser on the surface. Try to make us believe this guy single handedly invented Warp Drive. Check.
5. Defend a colony of self righteous pricks who don't want to share their "fountain of youth" energy source. Check.
6. Boob and zit jokes. Check.
7. Make a clone of Picard that looks nothing like Picard, except he's bald.
8. Have a completely ridiculous and heavily out of character Dune Buggy scene just because "it's cool".
9. Kill Data.
10. End TNG in the most depressing way possible.

Bonus:

11. Don't give us movie versions of the awesome Romulan D'eridex Warbirds. Instead give us Romulan ships that look like malnutritioned, decrepid seagulls. Check.

[MikeS]

jpch wrote:

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I honestly think Star Trek fans are a bit obsessive ...

Great observation. I wonder why no-one has ever noticed that before.