Describe if you will, a "real" Star Trek battle...

[Crazy Eddie]

TheRoyalFamily wrote:

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The way consoles explode, I don't think combustion with air has much to do with it. The fires afterwards, sure, but explosive consoles gonna 'splode, air or no. Really, extreme-environment suits, like Spock's in the new movie, would be the best protection.

Exploding consoles is more thermal damage than shrapnel, more often than not. More importantly, even 21st century space suits and are reinforced against micrometeoroid impacts and are effectively a form of low-grade body armor anyway. A 23rd/24th century space suit could be expected to have its own SIF or even forcefield protection for the same reason.

Shutting down artificial gravity would seem to be a safe bet too; no more bridge officers getting crushed by falling pillars.

How often does it happen that things just fall and hit folks? Usually it's stuff that exploded. Without gravity, it's going to fly across the bridge, hitting lots of people while ricocheting off walls and stuff.[/QUOTE]
Interestingly, a tumbling object in zero gravity only has so much momentum regardless of its mass; a grand piano tumbling through an open space in zero gravity packs a wallop, but a lot less than a ROLLING piano in the same space, which is accelerating at a constant rate instead of simply moving from a single brief impulse.

It's a tradeoff either way, but reducing the ship to vacuum conditions reduces the environmental hazards to that which could be found in open space itself, and those are somewhat easier to deal with if you have the right technology.

[TheRoyalFamily]

newtype_alpha wrote:

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Interestingly, a tumbling object in zero gravity only has so much momentum regardless of its mass; a grand piano tumbling through an open space in zero gravity packs a wallop, but a lot less than a ROLLING piano in the same space, which is accelerating at a constant rate instead of simply moving from a single brief impulse.

The piano (or whatever) would only be accelerating due to gravity if it were going downhill in a sufficiently steep manner. Don't think there are many hills in a starship. Gravity only accelerates in one direction: down. Unless the redshirt is terribly unlucky (something that cannot be discounted), "down" is not the direction that causes issues. Also, the ground makes a whole lot more friction than air (or vacuum!)

[Crazy Eddie]

TheRoyalFamily wrote:

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The piano (or whatever) would only be accelerating due to gravity if it were going downhill in a sufficiently steep manner. Don't think there are many hills in a starship.

Tell that to Joachim.

Any object shaken loose from the ceiling of the bridge (or the cargo bay or the engine room) will probably accelerate away from the wall at one or two meters per second tops, depending on what sort of force dislodged it in the first place. A FALLING object will hit the ground at five or six times that speed and, depending on its mass, will flatten whoever it lands on since the downward force is constant.

The same object tumbling through the bridge could be deflected with one hand and, if necessary, secured to the floor with a single strip of duct tape until it can be disposed of.

Gravity only accelerates in one direction: down.

And zero gravity accelerates in NO direction, ever. That simply means that unless the ship suffers the total failure of its inertial dampeners (in which case your crew is screwed with or without gravity) the ship isn't going to move much unless something hits it. Thus you're able to prevent falling injuries, crushing injuries, and other shenanigans that goes on whenever the ship is hit by something.

Also, the ground makes a whole lot more friction than air (or vacuum!)

Which is part of the problem, you see, as nine times out of ten the GROUND is the thing those redshirts are crashing into when the ship gets hit. When your unlucky tactical officer gets blown into the air from an exploding console, he isn't going to get a concussion or a broken arm from flipping over the railing and landing on his head. He might actually CATCH the railing and climb back into what's left of his console (which, thanks to the lack of oxygen, is no longer on fire).

[TheRoyalFamily]

Neither gravity nor momentum work that way. For one, if a thing is weightless, that doesn't mean it's massless. It is just as hard to stop a heavy object from moving (or changing its direction, or slow it down) whether there is gravity or not - this is inertia. With gravity, you have a constant force (hopefully) which gets stronger the more mass the object has, so there is more force to change it's direction/speed, and it would keep whatever on the floor; this is only a problem when you have to pick it back up, as you not only have the inertia of the object, but the force of gravity (and, as we are on a star ship with artificial gravity, we can just modify it locally and take care of that). Without gravity, the stuff (boxes, columns, redshirts) just flies through the air/vacuum, hitting whatever gets in its way until all it runs out of momentum (which is only taken away by hitting things). Here is a picture to illustrate:


On the bridge there shouldn't be anything that just falls; it can only be loosened by an explosion of some sort, and in the vast majority of cases would squish whoever was under it anyways.

Without air, however, there wouldn't be shock waves caused by exploding consoles (just electrical/plasma issues), so any of the above would be moot.

[Forbin]

Oh that is hysterical.

[cgervasi]

Once the shields and hull were penetrated, whole rooms of the ship would be destroyed at once. It doesn't make sense that exploding consoles from a hit kills someone at one console without hurting the person next to him. It wouldn't be as dramatic, but a hit would either destroy the bridge or not. I would not kill the navigator and leave everyone else unscathed.

[Saturn0660]

cgervasi wrote:

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Once the shields and hull were penetrated, whole rooms of the ship would be destroyed at once. It doesn't make sense that exploding consoles from a hit kills someone at one console without hurting the person next to him. It wouldn't be as dramatic, but a hit would either destroy the bridge or not. I would not kill the navigator and leave everyone else unscathed.

I would think it was take many many hits to get through the bridge.
As far as consoles full of plasma blowing up in your face. I'd say thats believable. Think about it like this. During a thunder storm you take a near hit from lighting. Is everything in your house destroyed? Not likely not. Just a few things. Same thing.
Lets say the starboard power coupling gets hit. (it's made of glass) Depending on whats going through it at the time depends on what hapless redshirt is killed.

See, super easy StarTrek Logic.

[jpch]

TheRoyalFamily wrote:

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Neither gravity nor momentum work that way. For one, if a thing is weightless, that doesn't mean it's massless. It is just as hard to stop a heavy object from moving (or changing its direction, or slow it down) whether there is gravity or not - this is inertia. With gravity, you have a constant force (hopefully) which gets stronger the more mass the object has, so there is more force to change it's direction/speed, and it would keep whatever on the floor; this is only a problem when you have to pick it back up, as you not only have the inertia of the object, but the force of gravity (and, as we are on a star ship with artificial gravity, we can just modify it locally and take care of that). Without gravity, the stuff (boxes, columns, redshirts) just flies through the air/vacuum, hitting whatever gets in its way until all it runs out of momentum (which is only taken away by hitting things). Here is a picture to illustrate:


On the bridge there shouldn't be anything that just falls; it can only be loosened by an explosion of some sort, and in the vast majority of cases would squish whoever was under it anyways.

Without air, however, there wouldn't be shock waves caused by exploding consoles (just electrical/plasma issues), so any of the above would be moot.

hahahaha

[Dale Sams]

My fanwank for why Excalibur lost its entire crew without the ship going kablooey in "The Ultimate Computer" was that M5 got a lucky hit on life support. (always a danger in one of the two board games I played. Maybe the ones with the cutouts and string.) Or intertial dampeners went offline and they turned to jelly.

Related to the spirit of this thread, anyone notice that early in TNGs run...they seem to imply that weapons have far outstripped shield capabilities? See: The Defector

"You still will not survive our attack"
"and you will not survive ours"

Seems like there were a couple of others I'm not remembering that seemed to imply that starships can only survive a couple of volleys.

[Crazy Eddie]

Dale Sams wrote:

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My fanwank for why Excalibur lost its entire crew without the ship going kablooey in "The Ultimate Computer" was that M5 got a lucky hit on life support.

Of all the technobabble plot holes that pop up in Star Trek over the years, this is the one that irritates me the most. I would explain why, but I found a dialog a few years ago that does this nicely.

DATA: Captain, we've just lost life support.
PICARD: Oh? Did Doctor Crusher have someone in the ICU?
DATA: No, Sir, I mean the life support system for the entire ship.
PICARD: The entire ship?
DATA: Yes sir.
PICARD: You mean that this giant space ship that has 42 decks and is half a mile long has exactly ONE self-contained life support system for all one thousand people on board, and that that life support system has now failed?
DATA: Affirmative.
PICARD: How could that happen?
DATA: Apparently that one system is very big and complicated, because we sometimes draw power away from it to boost our shields and weapons.
PICARD: But why? What it does it actually do?
DATA: It keeps us alive, Sir.
PICARD: How?
DATA: I assume the same way as a life support system in the intensive care unit at the hospital.
PICARD: You mean it breathes for us and regulates our blood flow, keeping us alive artificially?
DATA: Yes, Sir. It evidently does this for every man woman and child on board the ship, which is why we all begin to pass out and die within five minutes if it is ever deactivated.
PICARD: That's absurd!
DATA: No, Sir. That's plot device.

[Unicron]

Hee hee...

[webb3201]

[QUOTE

Agreed. Weber does the battle very convincingly.
If only he wouldn't babble on about fictional politics for chapters on end... [/QUOTE]

Here Here!

[YARN]

The Enterprise floating in space. Gleaming, majestic, a pale arrangement of saucers and cones drifting against a sheet of stars.

A Klingon vessel approaches...

The Real Battle

Warp factor 7 Mr. Sulu!

The Enterprise does not respond, because in reality there is no such thing as warp speed or warp engines.

She's not responding, Sir.

Impulse power, full reverse!

There is no such thing as impulse drive either.

Raise shields!

There are no shields.

Phasers!

There are no phasers.

Give me ship-to-ship, we'll tell them that we're meeting them in trust and friendship, but are prepared to act if they take hostile action.

No response from the Klingon-ship (in reality, there are no Klingons, although we could build a Klingon shaped ship, if we wished).

Spock! What's happening?

Captain, I suspect that we've entered an increasingly realistic universe. We will be without artificial gravity, subspace communication, and sensors in a few moments.

The crew begins floating. There is no such thing as artificial gravity in a realistic spaceship unless it uses acceleration or rotation. There are no gravity floor plates.

Captain, if we do not return to our universe we will die.

Sulu, take us back to our universe, now!

We don't have power Captain!

Don't give me that. Engage the imagination drive. It exists because I said so! What? You never thought it was curious that you could plot out complex courses in space by just hitting a few buttons? We are imaginary people! Use your imagination dammit!

Sulu floats to his console. Randomly hits a few buttons and turns a knob. The crew descend (with wires connected to the braces holding them up slightly visible) awkwardly back to the floor.

We have returned to imaginary space, Captain. Everything appears to be returning to normal.

Get us out here warp 15!

Warp 15?

Use your imagination! Let's go!

[blssdwlf]

"Half the Battle" by Harry Turtledove