Are regenerations still capped at 12?

[Nick Ryder]

I even got the impression from Tennant and even Eccelston's regenerations that they really were not quite sure they'd actually regenerate. Keep in mind, the 10th Doctor had the Master die in his arms, begging him to regenerate and he didn't. So I think honestly ever since the 10th's regen into the 11th it's been something of a surprise. Granted yeah he held it off, but I think a part of him was like 'I don't want to go, I don't know if I'll make it this time.' and given the overly violent nature of his last regen, with the Tardis crashing and getting massively trashed, it wasn't something that he thought 'Eh, I'll just turn into a new me and that'll be that, it's usually peaceful." This was a scary as hell thing. So in many ways I think he's already got that fear of mortality kinda thing, he can live for a very long time, but each time he 'dies', it could always be his last. Especially being the last true time lord out there, when he's gone, he's gone.

[Takeru]

Sindatur wrote:

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Why are you opposed to the Doctor having to face his own mortality, and actually face that he will die? The character wouldn't know he was indeed going to Regenerate. Lots of stories could be spun from both his belief he really could die and and also from his renewed appreciation for life after unexpectedly Regenerating

I'm opposed to it because we know that he won't die even if the character doesn't. All this sniffing and whining and eventual acceptance (unless they have him dragged away kicking and screaming) of his mortality is meaningless if the audience doesn't believe it for a second. It's the same reason why I disliked the story arc of series six, the more they tried to convince me that the Doctor would die at that friggin lake in Utah the more it annoyed me because I knew he wouldn't die, there was no doubt about it. The question was never if he would survive jut how he would weasel his way out of being shot.

Another thing is, wasn't it Ten who already did the I don't want to die part? He pretty much stated that regenerating equals death for the current Doctor, his memories survive but he's no longer the same person. I'm sure all stories about the thirteenth Doctor facing permanent death could be done with any Doctor facing regeneration with a little bit of tweaking. Just elaborate on what Ten said, make it clear to the audience that regenerating doesn't mean putting on a new meat suit, that it's scary and a definite end for the current regeneration.

Edit: Maybe they could give a Doctor some kind of gallifreyan cancer, it could be healed by conventional therapies if he's lucky, otherwise he regenerates, the companion could think that that's actually a pretty cool way to beat cancer. Have the Doctor snap back that it's not cool and that regenerating doesn't mean he'll have survived the cancer, it just means another guy remembers him. An illness would put him in a position where would be faced with a looming regeneration/death over a longer period of time, that could be used as a storyarc similar to the "no regenerations left" scenario, have him deal with his illness for an entire season and in the end he loses the battle and regenerates. That way the writer's could have the Doctor face his "mortality" without bullshitting the audience and a "Whoa, I'm the 14th Doctor!!!" non-surprise.

[Nick Ryder]

And that's a good point - I mean each 'doctor' was sort of their own person, even though they do carry over memories and feelings and the like, they're still new people essentially. Like I think Tennant's love for Rose didn't completely carry over from Eccelston's and I don't think Smith has quite the same feeling for her. So yea that's a good point - it's more than just a new face and body, it's a whole new aspect of his personality. Time Crash even sorta solidified that, while yeah it was just a funny thing, still sort of put it into words, where he felt that when he became Davidson's Doctor, it was a change of pace he wanted to keep. And I think he's got at least a little partial control over what his next form will be like - with Smith he kept the youthfulness and energy, but I think he was a bit more 'damaged' than he was prior because of what happened to him during his 10th. And 11 seems pretty 'damaged' now too. So who knows when Smith passes it on to someone else, I wonder if he'll return to being a youthful, energetic figure or be more serious and 'adult' again. I like the more 'fun' Doctors, but especially after last night's episode, I did see a lot of hints that he's sort of regressing to the way he was when he was trying to be "older and self important"

[Photoman15]

Nick Ryder wrote:

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I even got the impression from Tennant and even Eccelston's regenerations that they really were not quite sure they'd actually regenerate. Keep in mind, the 10th Doctor had the Master die in his arms, begging him to regenerate and he didn't. So I think honestly ever since the 10th's regen into the 11th it's been something of a surprise.

I didn't get that at all. He knew he would regenerate. He started glowing (not dying). He looked at regeneration differently than the others before him had. He described it as sort of a death (of the person he was). He liked himself. He didn't want to change that. There was no question to him (or us) that he was going to regenerate.

[Nick Ryder]

True - he liked how he was as Tennant but why would he say 'I don't want to go' he could have just glowed out and disappeared like the rest of the timelords too. While yes I think he didn't want to lose his old self - when he's the last of his kind, who knows if his next regeneration is going to be his last or if that radiation he took in was going to regenerate him properly. He staved off a regen when he still had that hand in a jar - that was something no other Doctor did prior.

[All-Seeing I]

There's always the possibility that the Doctor was killed at one point in the Time War, and in their desperation the Time Lords resurrected him just as they resurrected the Master and Rassilon, granting him a whole new life cycle.

Or perhaps it was a distinct disadvantage limiting their Time warriors to 13 lives, if they were being exposed to temporal weaponry that could age them to death; an extension of an extra few incarnations could have been genetically coded into their normal life cycle.

[Kelthaz]

Takeru wrote:

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Isn't this entire discussion pointless? The limit was always meaningless, there are many reasons to end the show, "We reached the limit of regenerations that was arbitrarily decided on decades ago" is not one of them.

Personally I'd prefer if the limit is never mentioned again, or if they outright contradict the old show, what I don't want is an explanation, this is one of the cases were "screw continuity" is the only right solution to the "problem".

I couldn't agree more. I enjoyed the throwaway line in SJA, but let us never mention regeneration limit again.

[Nick Ryder]

Hear Hear!

I wonder if 13 was just something someone came up with to keep other Time Lords from believing they were truly immortal. If you knew you could die, come back, die, come back an infinite number of times you'd feel there was nothing that could hurt you and you wouldn't give a damn about anyone or anything.

Plus the last couple of regens seemed to be pretty nasty compared to his previous regenerations. 11th's explosive regen - but I do wonder this - maybe there is no limit - but each subsequent regen gets younger and younger until basically you're living your life again as a child. I mean other than the 5th it seemed like the Doctor got younger each time. McGann was younger than McCoy. Eccleston was younger than McGann, Tennant was younger than Eccelston, Smith was younger Tennant... so if my theory continues... then the next Doctor will be younger than Smith - maybe even significantly younger - early 20s even.

[Klaus]

Well now that I've caught up I can revisit this thread w/o being spoiled lol... And I still would like them to mention the limit, even knowing that it will be passed. I'm not sure about the transfer of energy from River or the universe reboot in Big Bang having added anything to him, but the idea that the Time Lords rebooted the Master [who was already well past 12] means that it can definitely be done even if you stick w/the limit as being at least a concern.

It's more that I like the connections to classic Who, and however much it may have been a throwaway moment at the time, it's still there... I do like the idea of having him expect to really die and then be surprised when it works again. They could even have him speculate about why from the possibilities mentioned here w/o ever knowing the answer--and then not knowing if it'll work again. Sounds like a good hook into an arc about him being more careful, perhaps.

[MacLeod]

If they go beyond the 12 regeneration limit, I'm with the don't try and explain it (you'll never be able to please everyone no matter what explantion you come up with). Just have regenerate and go with a line like "This/that wasn't supposed to happen

[Nick Ryder]

Although what confuses me is why River Song was so worried about him using up his regeneration energy. She got all upset when he used it to heal her arm in the last story with the Ponds.

So I dunno I think there's still something afoot - either River's worrying about something she really doesn't or something's going to come from this Clara arc that he's going to need every bit of regen juice he's got to stay alive.

[MacLeod]

It all depends on where River got her knowledge of Timelords from, if it was from the Doctor he might mention the 12 regeneration, and that he is on his x th regeneration.

So if the Doctor things he is coming to the end of his life, why wouldn't others if he had told them?

[Klaus]

...and he was mad at her for using hers on him.

[Starkers]

Nick Ryder wrote:

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Hear Hear!

I wonder if 13 was just something someone came up with to keep other Time Lords from believing they were truly immortal. If you knew you could die, come back, die, come back an infinite number of times you'd feel there was nothing that could hurt you and you wouldn't give a damn about anyone or anything.

Plus the last couple of regens seemed to be pretty nasty compared to his previous regenerations. 11th's explosive regen - but I do wonder this - maybe there is no limit - but each subsequent regen gets younger and younger until basically you're living your life again as a child. I mean other than the 5th it seemed like the Doctor got younger each time. McGann was younger than McCoy. Eccleston was younger than McGann, Tennant was younger than Eccelston, Smith was younger Tennant... so if my theory continues... then the next Doctor will be younger than Smith - maybe even significantly younger - early 20s even.

McGann was 36 when he played the Doctor, Eccleston was 41, so the Doctor got older. I'm pretty certain the 12th Doctor, whoever it is, won't be any younger than Smith, in fact I'd say it'd be a fair bet he'll be older than Smith was when he took the role, even if it's just by a few years.

Edited to add...



Looking at the Doctor overall there's definitely been a tred to go younger over time although the optimum age would still be around 40. Of course just taking the modern Doctors into account they're clearly getting younger but I'd still expect the next guy (or gal ) to be at least early to mid thirties. But never say never, someone like Smith could come along and blow the casting people away again.

[sidious618]

I hope to see an older Doctor again. It'd mix things up a bit.