Does It Get Better??? - Page 98

tighr · January 3 2013, 12:18 AM

AdmiralScreed wrote:

Granted I've only watched 5.5 seasons of Voyager, but I can surmise that very little changed in the last 1.5 seasons. What a disappointment this show was!!! I don't think I will ever return to it, sorry to say.

You still never got to my favorite episode of Voyager...

And trust me, there is plenty of character development in it. A whole civilization of character development!

teacake · January 3 2013, 12:19 AM

What's your favorite episode?

exodus · January 3 2013, 12:29 AM

I think it depends on what you look to each show for.
I found Voy. had better humor and far more action than TNG.
I found with the Doc. B'Elanna & Seven, Voy. dealt with issue of civil rights and prejudice better than TNG did.
I felt TNG did better political stories, while Voy's were more interpersonal.
I think I related more with the character on DS9 & Voy better too. I think Tom & B'Elanna are the most realistic characters in any Trek series.
I've always thought in the back of my mind If the characters in TNG were real, they probably wouldn't be interested in talking to any of us but the ones from Voyager would.

teacake · January 3 2013, 12:32 AM

exodus wrote:

I think I related more with the character on DS9 & Voy better too.
I've always thought in the back of my mind If the characters in TNG were real, they probably wouldn't be interested in talking to any of us but the ones from Voyager would.

Yeah, this. TNG characters never engaged me. Picard is a fine captain but I don't actually give a fig about him. And the rest of them vary from seemingly no personality (Geordi, Crusher) to annoying or vile (Troi, Riker).

They're just not my people.

exodus · January 3 2013, 12:38 AM

teacake wrote:

exodus wrote:

I think I related more with the character on DS9 & Voy better too.
I've always thought in the back of my mind If the characters in TNG were real, they probably wouldn't be interested in talking to any of us but the ones from Voyager would.

Yeah, this. TNG characters never engaged me. Picard is a fine captain but I don't actually give a fig about him. And the rest of them vary from seemingly no personality (Geordi, Crusher) to annoying or vile (Troi, Riker).

They're just not my people.

Yes.
While TNG had good stories, I still don't feel like I know who Geordi, Troi or Crusher were as people outside their jobs. They didn't seemed like they lived for anything but work.

teacake · January 3 2013, 12:42 AM

Yeah I think TNG was really into that one eyed devotion to starfleet and the working to better yourself ideal in a way that wasn't as much of a driving force for the other shows. The Roddenberry grip.

DS9 had the advantage of showing the characters on a mini settlement and had major characters completely outside of the starfleet/humanity ideals. This was very enriching to character development and just plain more interesting to look at.

AdmiralScreed · January 3 2013, 01:02 AM

Good points, everyone. I personally thought the TNG characters were far more real. They carried out their duties with extreme professionalism, which to some may have been misconstrued as stuffiness. But in their off hours when they had a chance to relax I thought they were very fun and engaging people. They played games like poker, spent time on the holodeck, made and listened to music, and socialized with one another in Ten Forward. If I were on the Enterprise I would behave just like they did.
To me the Voyager characters seemed far more cartoonish, and the lack of any real development in most of the characters made them seem very unreal to me.
I'll agree TNG had plenty of flaws. The first season was extremely uneven, and some characters like Geordi and Crusher were underdeveloped, but on the other hand you had terrific characters like Picard, Data, Riker, and Worf who changed so much over the course of the show. These are the characters who made me fall in love with the show......oh, and can't forget my favorite doctor, Kathryn Pulaski!

exodus · January 3 2013, 01:12 AM

Interesting, I never got the impression that you found the characters on Voy. cartoonish from your reviews.
I found Pulaski kind of a bigot the way she treated Data.
You would think she didn't grow up with technology at all the way she acted toward it and him. How did she ever pass a psych evaluation to be put on a diplomatic vessel like the Enterprise if she didn't always respect the chain of command or except a new life form?
I would never use the holodecks on the Enterprise either considering most of the time they never worked right and were always getting trapped inside them.

teacake · January 3 2013, 01:16 AM

You get points for liking Pulaski

Yes the VOY characters are more cartoonish and that is an element as to why I like them so much. As an ensemble they are lively and colorful, full of shazam!.

I guess if I was on the Enterprise I wouldn't behave just like they did. I'd be more likely to behave like Trip or Paris. But I'm not into starfleet at all, there is no way I would ever be part of such an organization and when Trek makes the wunnerfulness of starfleet one of it's storyline backgrounds I glaze over.

Yes TNG had some great stories and laid the groundwork to much that came later. DS9 in particular owes it a debt as far as races and Klingon house politics go.

exodus · January 3 2013, 01:21 AM

teacake wrote:

You get points for liking Pulaski

I thought you were cool.

AdmiralScreed · January 3 2013, 01:22 AM

exodus wrote:

Interesting, I never got the impression that you found the characters on Voy. cartoonish from your reviews.
I found Pulaski kind of a bigot the way she treated Data.
You would think she didn't grow up with technology at all the way she acted toward it and him. How did she ever pass a psych evaluation to be put on a diplomatic vessel like the Enterprise if she didn't always respect the chain of command or except a new life form?

She was somewhat of a bigot at first, yes, but one of the reasons I found her so endearing was because she eventually came to recognize that her treatment of Data was wrong. By the end of her only season on the show she and Data were great pals. I thought she was very likable, and her occasional conflicts with Picard and Data made her interesting, among a group of characters who seemingly always got along.

And about my cartoonish comments, what I meant by that was that the characters were very one-sided. They were given personality traits early on, and the writers pretty much stuck to them and didn't really develop the characters into round, complex, and unique individuals. Maybe cartoonish was the wrong word to use because they didn't behave immaturely necessarily.....but on the other hand I feel it's not entirely inappropriate either. I need to formulate this a bit more....

MacLeod · January 3 2013, 01:23 AM

teacake wrote:

Yeah I think TNG was really into that one eyed devotion to starfleet and the working to better yourself ideal in a way that wasn't as much of a driving force for the other shows. The Roddenberry grip.

DS9 had the advantage of showing the characters on a mini settlement and had major characters completely outside of the starfleet/humanity ideals. This was very enriching to character development and just plain more interesting to look at.

A starship is a sort of mini settlement. Espically in the case of VOY were it was possible that you would be spending the rest of your life with the rest of the crew.

exodus · January 3 2013, 01:33 AM

AdmiralScreed wrote:

exodus wrote:

Interesting, I never got the impression that you found the characters on Voy. cartoonish from your reviews.
I found Pulaski kind of a bigot the way she treated Data.
You would think she didn't grow up with technology at all the way she acted toward it and him. How did she ever pass a psych evaluation to be put on a diplomatic vessel like the Enterprise if she didn't always respect the chain of command or except a new life form?

She was somewhat of a bigot at first, yes, but one of the reasons I found her so endearing was because she eventually came to recognize that her treatment of Data was wrong. By the end of her only season on the show she and Data were great pals. I thought she was very likable, and her occasional conflicts with Picard and Data made her interesting, among a group of characters who seemingly always got along.

And about my cartoonish comments, what I meant by that was that the characters were very one-sided. They were given personality traits early on, and the writers pretty much stuck to them and didn't really develop the characters into round, complex, and unique individuals. Maybe cartoonish was the wrong word to use because they didn't behave immaturely necessarily.....but on the other hand I feel it's not entirely inappropriate either. I need to formulate this a bit more....

Come to New Jersey.
I can show you a whole State full of people that are just like B'Elanna, Tom, Harry & Neelix. Seriously, that's why I find them real. I know LOTS of people that are just like them.

We don't call them cartoonish, we call them "characters".

teacake · January 3 2013, 01:40 AM

MacLeod wrote:

teacake wrote:

Yeah I think TNG was really into that one eyed devotion to starfleet and the working to better yourself ideal in a way that wasn't as much of a driving force for the other shows. The Roddenberry grip.

DS9 had the advantage of showing the characters on a mini settlement and had major characters completely outside of the starfleet/humanity ideals. This was very enriching to character development and just plain more interesting to look at.

A starship is a sort of mini settlement. Espically in the case of VOY were it was possible that you would be spending the rest of your life with the rest of the crew.

Yes but it's a mini-settlement of people in the same organization with the same ideals who even went to the same school! Can't compare that to DS9 with it's mix of races and civilians from all over with agendas that have nothing to do with starfleet.

AdmiralScreed · January 3 2013, 01:53 AM

exodus wrote:

AdmiralScreed wrote:

exodus wrote:

Interesting, I never got the impression that you found the characters on Voy. cartoonish from your reviews.
I found Pulaski kind of a bigot the way she treated Data.
You would think she didn't grow up with technology at all the way she acted toward it and him. How did she ever pass a psych evaluation to be put on a diplomatic vessel like the Enterprise if she didn't always respect the chain of command or except a new life form?

She was somewhat of a bigot at first, yes, but one of the reasons I found her so endearing was because she eventually came to recognize that her treatment of Data was wrong. By the end of her only season on the show she and Data were great pals. I thought she was very likable, and her occasional conflicts with Picard and Data made her interesting, among a group of characters who seemingly always got along.

And about my cartoonish comments, what I meant by that was that the characters were very one-sided. They were given personality traits early on, and the writers pretty much stuck to them and didn't really develop the characters into round, complex, and unique individuals. Maybe cartoonish was the wrong word to use because they didn't behave immaturely necessarily.....but on the other hand I feel it's not entirely inappropriate either. I need to formulate this a bit more....

Come to New Jersey.
I can show you a whole State full of people that are just like B'Elanna, Tom, Harry & Neelix. Seriously, that's why I find them real. I know LOTS of people that are just like them.

We don't call them cartoonish, we call them "characters".

Yes, haha, I see where you're coming from. But the VOY characters were totally stagnant, and we didn't see many sides to them. Real people change over time and have multiple layers to their personality.

January 3 2013, 12:19 AM	#1457
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Does It Get Better??? What's your favorite episode? __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne

January 3 2013, 12:29 AM	#1458
exodus Fleet Admiral Location: The Digital Garden	Re: Does It Get Better??? I think it depends on what you look to each show for. I found Voy. had better humor and far more action than TNG. I found with the Doc. B'Elanna & Seven, Voy. dealt with issue of civil rights and prejudice better than TNG did. I felt TNG did better political stories, while Voy's were more interpersonal. I think I related more with the character on DS9 & Voy better too. I think Tom & B'Elanna are the most realistic characters in any Trek series. I've always thought in the back of my mind If the characters in TNG were real, they probably wouldn't be interested in talking to any of us but the ones from Voyager would. __________________ Life's a bitch.........until you have a orgasm.

January 3 2013, 12:42 AM	#1461
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Does It Get Better??? Yeah I think TNG was really into that one eyed devotion to starfleet and the working to better yourself ideal in a way that wasn't as much of a driving force for the other shows. The Roddenberry grip. DS9 had the advantage of showing the characters on a mini settlement and had major characters completely outside of the starfleet/humanity ideals. This was very enriching to character development and just plain more interesting to look at. __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne

January 3 2013, 01:02 AM	#1462
AdmiralScreed Captain Location: Minnesota	Re: Does It Get Better??? Good points, everyone. I personally thought the TNG characters were far more real. They carried out their duties with extreme professionalism, which to some may have been misconstrued as stuffiness. But in their off hours when they had a chance to relax I thought they were very fun and engaging people. They played games like poker, spent time on the holodeck, made and listened to music, and socialized with one another in Ten Forward. If I were on the Enterprise I would behave just like they did. To me the Voyager characters seemed far more cartoonish, and the lack of any real development in most of the characters made them seem very unreal to me. I'll agree TNG had plenty of flaws. The first season was extremely uneven, and some characters like Geordi and Crusher were underdeveloped, but on the other hand you had terrific characters like Picard, Data, Riker, and Worf who changed so much over the course of the show. These are the characters who made me fall in love with the show......oh, and can't forget my favorite doctor, Kathryn Pulaski! __________________ Picard > Kirk

January 3 2013, 01:12 AM	#1463
exodus Fleet Admiral Location: The Digital Garden	Re: Does It Get Better??? Interesting, I never got the impression that you found the characters on Voy. cartoonish from your reviews. I found Pulaski kind of a bigot the way she treated Data. You would think she didn't grow up with technology at all the way she acted toward it and him. How did she ever pass a psych evaluation to be put on a diplomatic vessel like the Enterprise if she didn't always respect the chain of command or except a new life form? I would never use the holodecks on the Enterprise either considering most of the time they never worked right and were always getting trapped inside them. __________________ Life's a bitch.........until you have a orgasm.

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January 3 2013, 01:16 AM	#1464
teacake Admiral Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.	Re: Does It Get Better??? You get points for liking Pulaski Yes the VOY characters are more cartoonish and that is an element as to why I like them so much. As an ensemble they are lively and colorful, full of shazam!. I guess if I was on the Enterprise I wouldn't behave just like they did. I'd be more likely to behave like Trip or Paris. But I'm not into starfleet at all, there is no way I would ever be part of such an organization and when Trek makes the wunnerfulness of starfleet one of it's storyline backgrounds I glaze over. Yes TNG had some great stories and laid the groundwork to much that came later. DS9 in particular owes it a debt as far as races and Klingon house politics go. __________________ Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes. J'onn: It's all I have. ■ ■ ■ Janeway does Melbourne