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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 1 2013, 07:02 PM   #76
JarodRussell
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
And for everyone who brought up the Tamarians, no. They are not black. They have orange and red skin. If you're going to argue with me on that, you might as well argue that the male character "Billy Kwan" from the movie "The Year of Living Dangerously" is a woman because he was portrayed by an actress.
Ah, but that goes for the Ligonians too. They are aliens played by African American actors, like the Tamarians. If the Tamarians are not black, then neither are the Ligonians.

This goes back to my thread a few months ago. The Ligonians weren't alien enough to avoid the perception of racism. Put a bumpy forehead on them, and people would be more likely to see them as "alien" rather than "black."

Take the bumpy foreheads off the Tamarians, and some people would summarise Darmok as "unintelligible black men kidnap white man and force him into a knife fight."
Exactly!
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Old January 1 2013, 08:49 PM   #77
Jeyl
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
What if we find it's not racist and he was unjustly fired?
Because, as I've said earlier, it's also sexist.
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Old January 1 2013, 09:06 PM   #78
Jeyl
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Ah, but that goes for the Ligonians too. They are aliens played by African American actors, like the Tamarians. If the Tamarians are not black, then neither are the Ligonians.
Sonic, what is the color of the Tamarians' skin? And what color is the Ligonians skin? Whatever defense you may bring up regarding the Tamarians, I guarantee you they were not casted because they had black skin. And compared to the Ligonians, the Tamarians are far more civil with Darmok actually beaming down to the planet with the Picard, giving him his own knife, sharing his fire and forming a friendship through understanding. The Ligonians?

"As you can see, Captain, you may excel in technology, but not in civilized behavior."
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Old January 1 2013, 09:22 PM   #79
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

Quick question, is anyone involved in this argument not white?



Hey, why is the 'evil' smilie all black? TREKBBS IS RACIST! Everything that features a dark skinned actor in any way that rubs up against any negative connotations is racist. And the 'scream' one is reddish brown, are they implying people with brown skin yell more?

If anything is racist, it's treating every actor who isn't a white male heterosexual like both him and every character he plays should be perceived completely in the vein of being representative of his demographic.
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Old January 1 2013, 10:04 PM   #80
Dale Sams
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Quick question, is anyone involved in this argument not white?
(raises hand)
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Old January 1 2013, 10:10 PM   #81
SonicRanger
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Sonic, what is the color of the Tamarians' skin?
Brown.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
And what color is the Ligonians skin?
Brown.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Whatever defense you may bring up regarding the Tamarians, I guarantee you they were not casted because they had black skin.
On what basis do you make the guarantee? Do you have a copy of the casting call?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
"As you can see, Captain, you may excel in technology, but not in civilized behavior."
Exactly. The Ligonians see their actions as civilised. You call their actions "barbaric," just as the Romans called Germans and Persians "barbaric." It's a word that one uses to slander ideas and actions that are different than one's own. As Christopher (and Data) pointed out, the Ligonians' behaviour isn't even that "alien" in a sense. There are things that people on this planet did today that would seem more "alien" to you and I than the Ligonians' behaviour.
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Old January 2 2013, 03:23 PM   #82
Jeyl
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
On what basis do you make the guarantee?
Because I happen to think that Darmok was played wonderfully by the late Paul Winfield and that the make up department did such good work that I wouldn't have known that it was indeed Paul Winfield if not for the credits. The only credit I can give to Jessie Lawrence Ferguson's performance is that he'd make a good Baron Samedi.
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Old January 2 2013, 03:26 PM   #83
SonicRanger
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SonicRanger wrote: View Post
On what basis do you make the guarantee?
Because I happen to think that Darmok was played wonderfully by the late Paul Winfield and that the make up department did such good work that I wouldn't have known that it was indeed Paul Winfield if not for the credits.
Lack of perception is hardly good evidence that you have deduced something else properly.

Jeyl wrote: View Post
The only credit I can give to Jessie Lawrence Ferguson's performance is that he'd make a good Baron Samedi.
Now I'm just going to assume that your whole argument regarding the Ligonians is satire... The only thing that you can say about this actor is that he'd make a voodoo spirit.

Surely you must be striving for satire or irony now.
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Last edited by SonicRanger; January 2 2013 at 03:48 PM.
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Old January 2 2013, 04:47 PM   #84
Jeyl
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
The only thing that you can say about this actor is that he'd make a voodoo spirit.
Well, I can't really say he'd make a good china man or a Native American.

And didn't you ever see "Live and Let Die"? His accent in this episode sounds so much like he was trying to imitate Geoffrey Holder, the actor who played Baron Samedi in "Live and Let Die" and the 7UP commercials.
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Old January 2 2013, 04:58 PM   #85
Jeyl
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Lack of perception is hardly good evidence that you have deduced something else properly.
And you think the director of Code of Honor had great perception in deducing that this race of people who share similarities with the Chinese and Native Americans should be all black with deep accents?
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Old January 2 2013, 10:57 PM   #86
SonicRanger
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
SonicRanger wrote: View Post
The only thing that you can say about this actor is that he'd make a voodoo spirit.
Well, I can't really say he'd make a good china man or a Native American.
Jeyl wrote: View Post
SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Lack of perception is hardly good evidence that you have deduced something else properly.
And you think the director of Code of Honor had great perception in deducing that this race of people who share similarities with the Chinese and Native Americans should be all black with deep accents?
I can only reasonably explain such responses as facetiousness or an attempt at irony.
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Old January 2 2013, 11:56 PM   #87
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Ah, but that goes for the Ligonians too. They are aliens played by African American actors, like the Tamarians. If the Tamarians are not black, then neither are the Ligonians.
Then again, the Tamarians are obviously alien. The Ligonians look completely human. In fact it's possible that they ARE human, and that Ligon II is a human colony...
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Old January 3 2013, 07:07 AM   #88
SonicRanger
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Ah, but that goes for the Ligonians too. They are aliens played by African American actors, like the Tamarians. If the Tamarians are not black, then neither are the Ligonians.
Then again, the Tamarians are obviously alien. The Ligonians look completely human. In fact it's possible that they ARE human, and that Ligon II is a human colony...
No, Data identifies them as humanoids, not humans. But I agree that the Ligonians simply didn't look alien enough.
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Old January 3 2013, 07:18 AM   #89
Gil T.Azell
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
btw
SonicRanger's Signature wrote:
D.C. Fontana on Roddenberry's bad ideas: "I objected to Troi having three breasts... How are you going to line them up? Vertically, horizontally, or what?"
Did she ever see Total Recall and go "Ah!"?
Have one on the back for Dancing with Riker

Its not among my Favorite episodes, but I don't think it was racist.
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Old January 3 2013, 10:02 AM   #90
Triskelion
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Re: Was Code of Honor racist?

The problem wasn't that they were black, not black enough, or too black. The problem was that they were wooden.

The issue isn't racism. It's writing craft.

It is thin characterization in a time-constrained medium that already tends to generalize aliens in order to illustrate points - not about them, but about - us. Klingons are violent because audiences are violent. Vulcans are logical because audiences are logical. Medics are humane because audiences are humane. Photon torpedoes go boom because audiences like booms.


Star Trek, like all science fiction, is not about predictions or correlations with reality. It's not about facts. It's about truths.

Don't miss the forest for the trees. It's not whether the Space Pope really walked on plasma. It's what we take from the knowledge - and what we discard. To say a myth has no value - is an indictment, not against the myth, but against one's own discernment.


The producers didn't need Troi and Crusher to be soft. Gates and Sirtis wanted to be soft. The scripts were not about realistic dispersions of psychosocial traits across a population - but simplified, clarified morality plays. Trek played with our comfort zones - showing Tasha admit, in a time of fierce anti-drug social agitations, that "Drugs make you feel good." Showing diplomatic leadership in a time of Terminators and Rambos, Russians and Reagans. Showing soft feminine power in an era of pantsuits with shoulder pads and Cybill Shepherds out-toughing Bruce Willises. And yes, showing whole planets of black people in a time of racial integration hypersensitivity.

Trek may not have done so with the sophisticated story arcs and hyper-realistic techniques we know today; but it does challenge our comfort zones even today. We're still talking about the implications in 2013 - almost three decades later. I would say, mission accomplished!


</my $.02>
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