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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old January 1 2013, 06:38 PM   #946
Dalen Quaice
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Warlord wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but if you hear the cue in other episodes you'll realise it is not a hybrid, stuck-together edited cue, but an original one.
The makers of the set assured us over and over that everything was included.
So, Indysolo, what have you done with Spock's Brain??? Where've you taken it?
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Old January 1 2013, 06:41 PM   #947
The Warlord
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Warlord wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but if you hear the cue in other episodes you'll realise it is not a hybrid, stuck-together edited cue, but an original one.
It sounds like a hybrid cue to me -- it sounds like there's a cut between the initial sting and the last four bass notes. And both parts are ones I've heard in other cues from the episode. And if they created such a composite cue, why not reuse it?

The makers of the set assured us over and over that everything was included. Given the extreme thoroughness and attention to detail that compiling this set required, I have more faith in that than I have in some random listener's subjective perceptions about what constitutes a separate cue. It doesn't seem plausible that they would've overlooked any one thing given how thorough they were with everything else. So unless Indysolo posts here with a mea culpa about forgetting that cue, then I'm not going to be convinced that it's a separately recorded one.
You have your opinion, I have mine. And no, I'm not a 'random listener'. I'm a Star Trek fan and passionate about the Original Series music; like a lot of others who bought the set, I'm very aware of the detail of each episode score. I've only been on the forum for a few weeks but you're tone doesn't impress me. Whilst I'm not intending to prolong this argument, might I ask where you've heard the (supposedly) separate halves of the cue elsewhere in the episode?
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Old January 1 2013, 06:47 PM   #948
Dalen Quaice
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

This is a discussion forum. Not everyone likes what is said or opinions that are stated. This is NOT a sales forum for LA LA Land. I think the moderator has made that clear.

Warlord, you are welcome here... your opinion is welcome here.
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Old January 1 2013, 07:50 PM   #949
1001001
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Dalen Quaice wrote: View Post
This is a discussion forum. Not everyone likes what is said or opinions that are stated. This is NOT a sales forum for LA LA Land. I think the moderator has made that clear.
Absolutely correct.

Criticism, disappointment, etc. are perfectly acceptable opinions to express.

Just remember the TrekBBS Golden Rule: The Post, Not the Poster.

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Old January 1 2013, 08:26 PM   #950
Christopher
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

The Warlord wrote: View Post
You have your opinion, I have mine.
Opinion is irrelevant in questions of objective fact. Only evidence matters, or expert testimony. Neither of us is an expert on the same level as the compilers of the actual set.

And no, I'm not a 'random listener'. I'm a Star Trek fan and passionate about the Original Series music; like a lot of others who bought the set, I'm very aware of the detail of each episode score.
In other words, your qualifications are the same as mine -- we're both amateurs going by how things sound to us. Neither of us has handled the original recordings or worked with them for months like Indysolo did. Neither of us has studied the original documentation and cue sheets like the producers of the box set did. So compared to the producers of the set, both of us are "random listeners." We only have our perceptions, not firsthand evidence.

I have exactly as much faith in your perceptions as I have in my own -- and one thing I've discovered in listening to this set is that my own perceptions and assumptions about a lot of TOS music were wrong. I've got an exceptional memory for music, I've been keeping track of this music for decades, and yet I still made a lot of wrong conclusions because I was only going by how things sounded to me and didn't have access to the actual source material and production notes. So the last thing I'd do is assume I knew better than the producers of the set. If I thought there was a cue missing and they told me there wasn't, I'd trust their direct knowledge over my own perceptions and extrapolations.

I'm not saying my opinion is more right than yours. I'm saying that neither of our opinions constitutes reliable evidence, and we should reserve judgment until and unless we hear from Indysolo or someone else who worked on the set, someone who's actually got hard evidence about the origins of that bit of music.


Whilst I'm not intending to prolong this argument, might I ask where you've heard the (supposedly) separate halves of the cue elsewhere in the episode?
I don't know the cue titles by name yet. But I distinctly remember that four-note bass motif as being part of a couple of longer cues in the episode.
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Old January 2 2013, 01:09 AM   #951
Dalen Quaice
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

From "Requiem For Methuselah"

29 minutes into the episode:

SPOCK (on monitor): Most interesting. Our host appears to wish us to linger, yet he is apprehensive. [Start Cue] It is logical to assume that we are being monitored and that he is aware of our every move.

(Flint turns off the monitor)

RAYNA: You sent the [Cue ends] robot to kill him.

*Of interest in this episode is that the music preceding the cue is from the first part Track 18 of Spock's Brain.

Last edited by Dalen Quaice; January 2 2013 at 01:43 AM.
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Old January 2 2013, 04:33 AM   #952
Dalen Quaice
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

From "Plato's Stepchildren"

28 minutes into the episode:

SPOCK: Then you must release it, gentlemen, as I must master mine. I might have seriously injured you, Captain, even killed you. They have evoked such great hatred in me, I cannot allow it to go further. I must master it. I must control. [Cue starts]

(Spock breaks chalice with one hand.)

MCCOY: Jim. [Cue ends] This is senseless.

*Here the preceding music is exactly the same as in Spock's Brain - the entire sequence seems the same. The music fades more abruptly than it does in Requiem where it seems to end naturally.
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Old January 2 2013, 05:24 AM   #953
Dalen Quaice
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
I'm curious, I just realize there's a cue I can't find.

For those of you who have this set, and have seen the Star Trek: Phase II Blood and Fire, the teaser for part 1 has some Elaan of Troyious music, immediately followed by this staccato, fast paced action music.

Anyone know what this might be?
It is from Spock's Brain: Track 22, S3D2 The cue is Scientific Fight
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Old January 2 2013, 05:55 AM   #954
OneBuckFilms
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Dalen Quaice wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
I'm curious, I just realize there's a cue I can't find.

For those of you who have this set, and have seen the Star Trek: Phase II Blood and Fire, the teaser for part 1 has some Elaan of Troyious music, immediately followed by this staccato, fast paced action music.

Anyone know what this might be?
It is from Spock's Brain: Track 22, S3D2 The cue is Scientific Fight
Thank you good sir.
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Old January 2 2013, 07:20 AM   #955
JimZipCode
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Dalen Quaice wrote: View Post
From "Requiem For Methuselah"
29 minutes into the episode:
Dalen Quaice wrote: View Post
From "Plato's Stepchildren"
28 minutes into the episode:
We need the cue sheets.

It's nice that this new boxed set has given us something new to fight about.

I agree with Christopher: from interactions with Neil here and what we've seen in the many interviews about this set, it is impossible to believe that a cue was recorded for TOS, and not included. But that does not mean that the cue you are hearing would be in the set. I find it very easy to believe that the music editor(s) would graft a couple cues together to make what sounds like a new cue.

An example of what I'm thinking of is in The Omega Glory, during the sequence while Kirk and Tracy are fighting in the tent. Spock mentally hexes the girl into opening the communicator. They overdub the Amok Time Ritual Battle music with another Vulcan cue from Amok Time (Contrary Order?), to create what sounds like a new multi-melody cue. That specialized cue is not in the set (I don't think??); but it's probably just a music editor's creation, not something that was recorded that way.

I don't think Christopher is saying that you're hearing it wrong; I think he's saying that what you're hearing was likely composited by the music editors, and we have the "raw" component cues in the set. (Maybe you understood that already.) I'm sure with enough listens we can figure it out.

I don't own recordings of those two episodes. Is there a place I can watch them online? No longer at CBS, it seems. Doesn't seem to work at StarTrek.com either.
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Old January 2 2013, 03:07 PM   #956
Christopher
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
I agree with Christopher: from interactions with Neil here and what we've seen in the many interviews about this set, it is impossible to believe that a cue was recorded for TOS, and not included.
Well, "impossible" is an overstatement. It's just very, very improbable. Which is why belief, one way or the other, is meaningless to a question of fact. What we need are actual data. We need to hear from Neil or one of the other people who worked with the original recordings and cue sheets and can give us solid answers based on the source material itself.

But that does not mean that the cue you are hearing would be in the set. I find it very easy to believe that the music editor(s) would graft a couple cues together to make what sounds like a new cue.

An example of what I'm thinking of is in The Omega Glory, during the sequence while Kirk and Tracy are fighting in the tent. Spock mentally hexes the girl into opening the communicator. They overdub the Amok Time Ritual Battle music with another Vulcan cue from Amok Time (Contrary Order?), to create what sounds like a new multi-melody cue. That specialized cue is not in the set (I don't think??); but it's probably just a music editor's creation, not something that was recorded that way.
Another example is the cue that ends the teaser of "Tomorrow is Yesterday," when we first see the Enterprise in Earth's atmosphere. It's actually a cue from "The Enemy Within" (the final one, I believe) with a couple of bars cut out, yet it works so well that it feels like a distinct cue of its own.


I don't own recordings of those two episodes. Is there a place I can watch them online? No longer at CBS, it seems. Doesn't seem to work at StarTrek.com either.
They're all available for streaming from Netflix.
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Old January 2 2013, 04:34 PM   #957
Dalen Quaice
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

I think we all agree that we "need" the cue sheets.

However, that seems unlikely to happen given statements by one of the producers of the set that they were unable to obtain a license from See-BS to release the cue sheets to us because they are considered internal documents. We can obviously continue to hope that this changes...

We are all aware of the marketing behind this set - the interviews and the videos that suggested it was "perfect" and contained "every note"... is that just sales BS to sell discs or is it actual fact that can be proven and tested?

I encourage anyone lurking here on the forum to post your feelings and join the discussion.

Last edited by Dalen Quaice; January 2 2013 at 09:48 PM.
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Old January 2 2013, 05:31 PM   #958
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Dalen Quaice wrote: View Post
We are all aware of the marketing behind this set - the interviews and the videos that suggested it was "perfect" and contained "every note"... is that just sales BS to sell discs or is it actual fact that can proven and tested?
Honestly, I don't think these guys would say "every note" if they didn't mean exactly that. Especially when dealing with detail oriented Trekkies. A "nearly every note" would be accepted along with "everything we could find." There are plenty of comprehensive soundtrack box sets out there containing "every surviving cue." Soundtrack buffs are used to that and we would actually rather hear that than bullshit. The guys who produced this set know this and have produced other "almost all cues" sets in the past.

If anything is missing (and I mean underscore, not vocal tracks), it is because they had no information on it ever existing. Apparently they had paperwork backing up the inventory, and they found everything listed. If anything was left out, I'd be shocked. Although, having said that, I'll feel better when that Spock's Brain cue is found elsewhere on the set. I'm having a tough time digging that one up.
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Old January 2 2013, 06:01 PM   #959
Dalen Quaice
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

For reference, regarding the quotes from the producers of the set:

"Every piece of music that was ever recorded for the show is on this album" - Jeff Bond

"It is very ambitious to say this is complete because if you miss one note, it is not. So we had to make sure we had everything." - Lukas Kendall

"We have to be spot-on perfect: and that's what we are going to get with this set." - Neil S. Bulk
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Old January 2 2013, 06:06 PM   #960
OneBuckFilms
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Re: La-La Land to release 15-disc original series score set

Dalen Quaice wrote: View Post
I think we all agree that we "need" the cue sheets.

However, that seems unlikely to happen given statements by one of the producers of the set that they were unable to obtain a license from See-BS to release the cue sheets to us because they are considered internal documents. We can obviously continue to hope that this changes...

We are all aware of the marketing behind this set - the interviews and the videos that suggested it was "perfect" and contained "every note"... is that just sales BS to sell discs or is it actual fact that can proven and tested?

I encourage anyone lurking here on the forum to post your feelings and join the discussion.
We have had several situations crop up where what sounds like a new/missing cue was created editorially, and has been revealed as such.

If there IS something missing, which I personally doubt, it is certainly not intentional.

It's quite possible that IndySolo is well aware of the cue in question in the above discussions, and figured out that it was created editorially.

This is not marketing BS going on here.

These guys are thorough, and this was a true labor of love for all involved.
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