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Old December 30 2012, 10:21 PM   #76
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

^ If the district was decreased in size such that it consisted of only the National Mall, comprising the actual apparatus of government, the rest of it could become a new state. (Not 'retrogressed' back to an existing state, none of which would want it.) Thus the federal government would still be on its own land, but residents would have full representation due to their actually being part of a state.

Remember, DC was never intended to have residents.
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Old December 30 2012, 11:18 PM   #77
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Maybe the Humans of the 22nd century when all this was being set up got some glass beads and lost their homeworld?
Remember what happen to the Ferengi home world's moon?
No, no I don't.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
150 member worlds, who each bought a few dozen systems in when they joined up.
LILY: How many planets are in this Federation?
PICARD: Over one hundred and fifty ...

I do kind of assume that means 150+ species home ("birth") planets. Let's say that Starfleet encounters a small interstellar republic, 10 species home worlds and each home world has 9 colonies. 100 planets total. They are convinced to join the Federation, I think that would mean only 10 additional seats on the council, not 100.

It would depend on what the Federation membership considers a "unit" for a seat.

.
Do the other seven planets in Earth's solar system count?

I assume those planets are colonized and have federation governors, unless the entire solar system is reclassified as Earth and the other planets and dwarf planets and smaller, are legally regarded as countries from Earth or even cities from Earth.
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Old December 30 2012, 11:27 PM   #78
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

^ Mars is a Federation member world in its own right, and is independent from Earth.
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Old December 30 2012, 11:43 PM   #79
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Book canon or Tv canon?
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Old December 30 2012, 11:47 PM   #80
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

^ Both, I think.
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Old December 31 2012, 01:23 AM   #81
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Star Grinch wrote: View Post
I dunno, historically even the most democratic of governments don't just allow a part of the country to leave on a whim and I just can't see the Federation endorsing a secession clause.

I definitely could see Section 31 arranging accidents for anyone who starts voicing such views.
It is an alliance and you certainly can leave. It's like EU. You think rest of the EU countries are going to send their armies to invade Portugal if it chooses to leave the EU?
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Old December 31 2012, 02:34 AM   #82
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

If Earth wants to leave the Federation it's one thing, but what if it's just Earth's moon who wants to leave the Federation or even the United Earth?
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Old December 31 2012, 02:44 AM   #83
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If Earth wants to leave the Federation it's one thing, but what if it's just Earth's moon who wants to leave the Federation or even the United Earth?
Doctor Evil for President of the Moon.
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Old December 31 2012, 03:09 AM   #84
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If Earth wants to leave the Federation it's one thing, but what if it's just Earth's moon who wants to leave the Federation or even the United Earth?
Luna isn't a separate member. It's under United Earth control.

As for UE: It may be a special case, as most of the Federation headquarters is located there.
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Old December 31 2012, 04:16 AM   #85
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

I know that that was my point.

A Moonsian Declaration of independence would be followed by an overwhelming and violent military response form Earth.

The jolly butt hurt about somewhere as small as Luna, just 3 million people, is that the Federation can give these idjits their own penal colony on the border of Cardassian space with ease. Just pick them up and freight these wannabe expats out to the boondocks where they can be independent where no one cares.
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Old December 31 2012, 06:27 AM   #86
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ It most definitely is necessary for DC to be a state.
Again, if another nation can have a federal district that isn't a state, and the residents of that district can have elected representation in both houses of the federal government, (and vote for president), why does DC have to be a state to have the same arrangement in this nation?
Because a federal district can have its laws and budgets overturned by the federal Congress if it feels like it; a state cannot.

Perfect example: Congress trying to stop the District of Columbia from using D.C. taxpayer money from subsidizing abortions for the poor in D.C. Why should some asshole from Arizona or Colorado get to vote on an internal D.C. matter like that? It's not like anyone gets to tell Arizona what to do with its internal affairs.

D.C. statehood is the only way to stop that kind of interference with its internal affairs.

And that's to say nothing of the fact that the people of the District of Columbia want to be a state and do not want to be part of Maryland. When more people than populate the State of Wyoming want statehood, that should be a determining factor, too.

Because that would put the federal government physically inside of one of the states.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

ETA:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Mars is a Federation member world in its own right, and is independent from Earth.
Book canon or Tv canon?
^ Both, I think.
Book, actually. The canon established that Mars was colonized, but it was the novels that have established that the Martian polity became independent of Earth and then joined the Federation as a separate Member later on.

Specifically, ENT: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing established that the Confederated Martian Colonies was formed after the War of Martian Independence in 2105 -- 25 years before the founding of United Earth in 2130 (Articles of the Federation). Presumably, the CMC fought for independence against one of the pre-Unification sovereign states on Earth, or against an Earth corporation.

Mars's date of Federation Membership in the novels is unestablished. The reference book Star Trek: Star Charts, which the novels are sometimes selectively inconsistent with, refers to the United Martian Colonies as having joined the Federation as a charter Member in 2161; this contradicts Articles, which established Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri to have been the only founding Members. One might reconcile this to a point by presuming that the Confederated Martian Colonies joined later that same year.

Longinus wrote: View Post
Star Grinch wrote: View Post
I dunno, historically even the most democratic of governments don't just allow a part of the country to leave on a whim and I just can't see the Federation endorsing a secession clause.

I definitely could see Section 31 arranging accidents for anyone who starts voicing such views.
It is an alliance and you certainly can leave.
The Federation has exercised all of the powers and authorities of a sovereign state; it's not just an alliance.

But the Federation is a sovereign state built upon the idea of mutual consent and a democratic mandate. It would almost certainly put into place a procedure for a Federation Member to democratically chose to peacefully secede.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If Earth wants to leave the Federation it's one thing, but what if it's just Earth's moon who wants to leave the Federation or even the United Earth?
I'm sure that the Federation has a procedure in place both for constituent polities of Federation Members to accede to their own separate Federation Membership, and for Federation Members or their constituent polities to secede and become completely independent, sovereign states.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
A Moonsian Declaration of independence would be followed by an overwhelming and violent military response form Earth.
Why?

Who wants to keep the buzzkills around if they want to leave the party?
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Old December 31 2012, 07:46 AM   #87
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

The people are irrelevant.

But if they take the moon?

That's unacceptable.

Have you played Future Risk?

There's a separate board for the Moon.

You take rockets up there and then rain nukes on the stupid terrans.

If you let these hypothetical malcontents declare independence only to find that 6 weeks later that they're trying to decide if they should join the Dominion or the Romulan Star Empire, it all just sounds too much like the Cuban Missile Crisis in Space to me.

No money.

No property.

Everyone lives where they're told, or petitions to live where they want and live where they're told until the local government confirms or denies their "request" to live where they want. I suppose if some turk vintner could make a good enough argument, like that all the Picards on earth are dead (did the wife survive?) that they should occupy Chateu Picard and rebegin production. The only thing stopping that is that Picard saved the Federation a couple times.

If the federation felt uncomfortable with the Lunal population they could disperase all 3 million to a hundred outter colonies, and restaff the moon with agreeable loyalist.
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Old December 31 2012, 07:54 AM   #88
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The people are irrelevant.

But if they take the moon?

That's unacceptable.

Have you played Future Risk?

There's a separate board for the Moon.

You take rockets up there and then rain nukes on the stupid terrans.

If you let these hypothetical malcontents declare independence only to find that 6 weeks later that they're trying to decide if they should join the Dominion or the Romulan Star Empire, it all just sounds too much like the Cuban Missile Crisis in Space to me.
Please. An independent Luna would still be dependent on the Federation for its national defense -- it's not like a threat to Earth wouldn't be a threat to Luna, too -- and would be dependent on Federation good will to keep its shipping lanes open. The Federation would easily be able to prevent rival powers from setting up shop on Luna, and would certainly be able to obtain treaty guarantees of Lunar neutrality or alliance.

Think less "Cuba" and more "Republic of Ireland."
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Old December 31 2012, 08:18 AM   #89
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

America eventually had to airlift everything into West Berlin because the Eastern Block was just being ridiculously difficult with the road blocks, tariffs and health and safety inspections.
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Old December 31 2012, 07:57 PM   #90
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
unless the entire solar system is reclassified as Earth and the other planets and dwarf planets and smaller, are legally regarded as countries from Earth or even cities from Earth.
I think that this would basically be it.

Unless they were in some fashion separated from Earth officially, they would be a part of "Earth." Other star systems that are linked to Earth (colonies, etc.) would also be a part of "Earth."

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ Mars is a Federation member world in its own right, and is independent from Earth.
That would be an official separation. As long as there wasn't a adversarial relationship ("how dare you leave us") things should be fine. Now if Mars as a sovereign state choose to be independent okay, but if they joined another interstellar organization besides the Federation (which would be their right) things could get messy.

Longinus wrote: View Post
It is an alliance and you certainly can leave. It's like EU. You think rest of the EU countries are going to send their armies to invade Portugal if it chooses to leave the EU?
The United Kingdom might be a better example than Portugal, since as a population they are currently discussing separation from the EU.

I don't think the Federation would have a "the door locks behind you" rule.

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