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Old December 30 2012, 02:11 PM   #16
Star Wolf
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Re: Ferengi Military

Timo wrote: View Post

It takes a lot of power to protect trade routes
Yet nations like Japan and South Korea have none, despite being among the most dependent on sea trade. Their navies are not bluewater-capable, either out of choice or out of economic and technical necessity.


Timo Saloniemi
I don't think that is a good analogy. Japan and by extension its Korean protectorate was able to defend its seas routes into the middle of 1942. And then after 1945 both nations became protectorates of the United States, "federation" members if you like. And should the US and its allies fail to protect the trade routes outside of F-15 range they do have enough Sea Self Defense Force power to project against pirates in a go fast boat with a heavy machine-gun and rocket launcher
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Old December 30 2012, 02:53 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Ferengi Military

Japan and by extension its Korean protectorate was able to defend its seas routes into the middle of 1942.
...Mainly because said routes were fully within uncontested areas, inside a vast empire where all fighting was taking place at the fringes. When convoy protection became necessary as the USN finally got its submarine act together, the IJN found itself totally lacking in means.

Would the Ferengi waste precious GPL for escort if they could skip it somehow, either like Japan during the early war (all threats elsewhere), or later on (somebody else's problem to keep Japan safely supplied)?

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Old December 30 2012, 02:55 PM   #18
Star Wolf
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Re: Ferengi Military

Well until 1939 the entire world was an uncontested area
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Old December 30 2012, 03:01 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: Ferengi Military

...And no convoy forces existed for any navy save for the Royal Navy of Great Britain (a large number of destroyers and light cruisers specifically for "colonial" and convoy use) and theoretically the USN (a very large number of semi-modern destroyers, but without a doctrinal basis for convoy or colonial operations). Commerce protection has been a military mission only on occasion, and achieved by a great variety of means, of which escorted convoy and sea superiority are the two most common and effective - but the Ferengi might skip both in favor of even more effective things, such as flags of neutrality or flags of alliance.

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Old December 30 2012, 05:20 PM   #20
The Librarian
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Re: Ferengi Military

Timo wrote: View Post
Yet nations like Japan and South Korea have none, despite being among the most dependent on sea trade. Their navies are not bluewater-capable, either out of choice or out of economic and technical necessity.
The Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force is one of the largest navies in the world, ranking at about even with the Royal Navy. South Korea also has a pretty large blue-water fleet as well. Both, IIRC, have participated in the anti-piracy patrol around East Africa.
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Old December 30 2012, 07:06 PM   #21
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Re: Ferengi Military

I don't think it's a stretch to assume that the Ferengi really do have a well organized military force. There could be a lot of profit in it - being in the space service could pull in a hefty salary, and protecting the shipping lanes and trade routes would also be very profitable.

That being said, we do know that there are Ferengi who like things other than pure profit. For instance there's the Eliminators - hired killers - who are viewed as dangerous psychopaths because they enjoy killing in and of itself, more than the profits gained thereby. So perhaps the military are viewed the same way - as aberrant because they enjoy serving the Ferengi state itself, more than any money they might make.
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Old December 30 2012, 08:40 PM   #22
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Ferengi Military

I would assume the Farengi have a privatized military.

There's no unified military, there's a lot of individual militias funded by the rich people who need them. So some of them must have acquired very powerful ships.

I wish they'd brought back the whips from Last Output. Those were cool.
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Old December 30 2012, 10:00 PM   #23
publiusr
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Re: Ferengi Military

I'm calling it something like the navy of the Confederacy.
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Old December 30 2012, 10:10 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: Ferengi Military

The Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force is one of the largest navies in the world, ranking at about even with the Royal Navy.
True, but as said, doctrinal-political reasons prevent it from serving in the commerce protection role.

South Korea also has a pretty large blue-water fleet as well.
Only in the sense that individual vessels can transit across oceans; the same is true of basically every navy out there, with tiny gunboats being hauled from the manufacturing country to the user country in a completely non-operational manner. The Korean vessels lack national support assets allowing actual operations in distant waters; the Royal Navy has those assets, even if in dwindling numbers, and has traditionally operated ships of longer individual reach from a global network of national bases anyway.

Both, IIRC, have participated in the anti-piracy patrol around East Africa.
True enough, but something of a special case in commerce protection, largely ineffective and symbolic, and not particularly related to the capacity to protect national commerce in an "actual" crisis. Not that classic convoy protection would really serve a purpose nowadays, regardless of the nature of the crisis; technology has moved past such things already.

How is commerce raiding countered in Star Trek? We have seen two convoy battles, in "Rules of Engagement" and "Sons and Daughters", with WWI-style tactics where the escorting vessel scrambles to meet the attackers and leaves the transports defenseless. That's very different from how convoys today would fight, with "fortress ships" keeping close to the proteges and fighting back with long-range weapons - but Star Trek doesn't seem to have that sort of weapons technology. Would the Ferengi escort merchant ships? Or would the merchant ships be their own escorts - i.e. would trade take place with those mighty D'kora Marauders in times of crisis, or perhaps even on a regular basis? We don't really know what it takes to keep trade flowing in Trek, or even whether keeping trade flowing is a worthwhile pursuit. For the Ferengi, loss of commercial shipping might well be somebody else's problem, or indeed everybody else's problem; the Ferengi would just wait for the profits, or alternately the insurance money, as the goods themselves would matter nothing to them.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 31 2012, 12:52 AM   #25
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Re: Ferengi Military

Aside from the war against the Dominion I would not say that commerce protection nor shipping lane protection would need the level of commitment shown in the Earth world wars against the submarine threat. It is more in line of protecting against Somali pirates. If a starship is in the area then Starfleet takes an interest and shadows the threat. Now does the Grand Nagus control enough assets to do the same leading to a Ferengi military? Or would the Nagus secure in the knowledge that Starfleet will do the heavy lifting have a smaller private contractor based military?

From what I have seen a Marauder privateer being paid by the insurance company or merchant prince and occasionally seizing a prize would be the Ferengi form of military. Just enough guns on a merchantman to deter the easy loss and with the occasional cruiser visit to knock down the pirates best technology. As the Japanese and South Korean analogy goes would the Federation stand aside anymore the the US Navy will stand aside if the Russian fleet were to target Japanese ships? Serbian ships?.....
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Old December 31 2012, 01:21 AM   #26
The Wormhole
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Re: Ferengi Military

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I wish they'd brought back the whips from Last Output. Those were cool.
The Ferengi in the Enterprise episode Acquisition did have energy whips. Also, Quark's Marauder Mo action figures did include an energy whip accessory.
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Old December 31 2012, 05:53 AM   #27
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Re: Ferengi Military

I forget what its called (I just remember congress) but the leading council in the alliance (which the nagus leads) is of corporate CEOs. So I can believe that the ferengi military is not run by there state, but could be used by the corporations on behalf of the state. Although the state pre Rom seemed to be non existent and was only their to ensure the free flow of the economy and to enforce what few laws existed.

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