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View Poll Results: How would you grade The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey?
A+ 32 16.58%
A 52 26.94%
A- 38 19.69%
B+ 28 14.51%
B 15 7.77%
B- 9 4.66%
C+ 1 0.52%
C 8 4.15%
C- 2 1.04%
D+ 3 1.55%
D 1 0.52%
D- 3 1.55%
F 1 0.52%
Voters: 193. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 29 2012, 10:48 PM   #361
Asbo Zaprudder
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Apparently Galdriel can read minds - I wondered if Elrond finds it a kind of an annoying trait for a mother-in-law to have.
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Old December 29 2012, 11:10 PM   #362
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Hanukkah Solo wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
According to the Fellowship commentary track by Jackson and the writers, the time gap you refer to was eliminated.
Thanks. I couldn't remember any specific references to the time gap. It's been quite a while since I last watched FOTR, let alone listened to any of the commentaries.
No problem. I remember specifically one of the female writers saying something to the effect that, because of momentum, they couldn't honor the time gap. They found other ways to honor Tolkien to the letter in such details as costume design, but with the momentum needed to move a feature film forward, they had to take liberties in the narrative here and there.
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Old December 30 2012, 12:40 AM   #363
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

I just finished reading the timeline in the ROTK index, and it's ridiculously spread out. Basically one event happens, a century passes, then someone reacts to that event. It definitely needs some tightening up.
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Old December 30 2012, 12:48 AM   #364
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

^ Saruman was right about Gandalf's love of the Longbottom Leaf. Probably right about Radagast and the mushrooms, too.
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Old December 30 2012, 01:24 AM   #365
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Wereghost wrote: View Post
^ Saruman was right about Gandalf's love of the Longbottom Leaf.
Saruman was a closet leaf-smoker and a total hypocrite.
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Old December 30 2012, 01:34 AM   #366
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

^ Very true. And I think that the way Lee played it in this movie was that Saruman had basically already defected to Sauron's side and was completely manipulating the others.
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Old December 30 2012, 04:30 AM   #367
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
According to the Fellowship commentary track by Jackson and the writers, the time gap you refer to was eliminated.
Also, I just rewatched the Colbert Report episode with Andy Serkis from Hobbit week, and I noticed that Serkis says there is 60 years' difference between LOTR Gollum and The Hobbit's version.
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Old December 30 2012, 04:54 AM   #368
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Wereghost wrote: View Post
^ Very true. And I think that the way Lee played it in this movie was that Saruman had basically already defected to Sauron's side and was completely manipulating the others.
To the extent that the seen is to be read like that, I dislike it. The fact that Saruman changed sides works best when there is a time when he wasn't for the forces of evil. He's a Wizard who everyone expects to be able to call on only to find that he's betrayed you. I read the scene as him just being skeptical, but I wish he was even a bit more "good guy," just to contrast it with what happens later.
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Old December 30 2012, 04:54 AM   #369
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Mr Light wrote: View Post
I just finished reading the timeline in the ROTK index, and it's ridiculously spread out. Basically one event happens, a century passes, then someone reacts to that event. It definitely needs some tightening up.
I agree, it's pretty weird in some spots. Particularly Gandalf waiting ninety years between obtaining the map and key to Erebor's secret door and then giving them to Thorin. I guess you could handwave it away by saying his divine nature enables him to know when it's the proper time to do something, but still.
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Old December 30 2012, 05:32 AM   #370
Set Harth
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Wereghost wrote: View Post
^ Very true. And I think that the way Lee played it in this movie was that Saruman had basically already defected to Sauron's side and was completely manipulating the others.
To the extent that the seen is to be read like that, I dislike it. The fact that Saruman changed sides works best when there is a time when he wasn't for the forces of evil. He's a Wizard who everyone expects to be able to call on only to find that he's betrayed you. I read the scene as him just being skeptical, but I wish he was even a bit more "good guy," just to contrast it with what happens later.
I'm afraid his skepticism is not genuine, but I don't think "defected to Sauron's side" accurately describes the situation at the time of The Hobbit either.

In a sense, I think the reluctant dynamic we see with Saruman in AUJ's White Council scene is cribbed from a meeting which took place earlier in the book chronology. From the 2851 entry in the "Tale of Years" ( LOTR's Appendix B ):

The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. (*) Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

(*) It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.


So it seems probable that AUJ's Saruman only feigns skepticism at Sauron's return because he is already looking for the Ring.
( However, it should be noted that the 2850 entry had said "Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron", while in the film timeline he is uncertain even in 2941. )

In the 2941 ( year of The Hobbit ) entry we have:
The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River.

Later in 2953:
Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea.

And it is only in "c.3000" that we get to the following:
Saruman dares to use the palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone.
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Last edited by Set Harth; December 30 2012 at 05:50 AM.
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Old December 30 2012, 01:54 PM   #371
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Saw The Hobbit last night with my brother...
We both liked it...
In 2 years, in 2014, a cinema close-by will do a 2 day trilogy marathon:
day 1 The Hobbit trilogy, day 2 The Lord Of The Rings trilogy...
It's pretty much garantueed that we will be going then...
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Old December 30 2012, 03:33 PM   #372
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

I might do a LOTR marathon tomorrow... couldn't imagine watching The Hobbit Trilogy EE's with that in a few years. It would literally take a whole day.
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Old December 30 2012, 04:31 PM   #373
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
Wereghost wrote: View Post
^ Very true. And I think that the way Lee played it in this movie was that Saruman had basically already defected to Sauron's side and was completely manipulating the others.
To the extent that the seen is to be read like that, I dislike it. The fact that Saruman changed sides works best when there is a time when he wasn't for the forces of evil. He's a Wizard who everyone expects to be able to call on only to find that he's betrayed you. I read the scene as him just being skeptical, but I wish he was even a bit more "good guy," just to contrast it with what happens later.
I'm afraid his skepticism is not genuine, but I don't think "defected to Sauron's side" accurately describes the situation at the time of The Hobbit either.

In a sense, I think the reluctant dynamic we see with Saruman in AUJ's White Council scene is cribbed from a meeting which took place earlier in the book chronology. From the 2851 entry in the "Tale of Years" ( LOTR's Appendix B ):

The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. (*) Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

(*) It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.


So it seems probable that AUJ's Saruman only feigns skepticism at Sauron's return because he is already looking for the Ring.
( However, it should be noted that the 2850 entry had said "Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron", while in the film timeline he is uncertain even in 2941. )

In the 2941 ( year of The Hobbit ) entry we have:
The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River.

Later in 2953:
Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea.

And it is only in "c.3000" that we get to the following:
Saruman dares to use the palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone.
Fascinating. Given the compressed timeline, this would better fit the later time when Saruman authorized the attack rather than the earlier overruling. That being said, it isn't inconsistent with the Appendices, so I guess that'll warm me up a bit more to it. Now my only complaint is that it sucks the life out of the movie
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Old December 30 2012, 04:39 PM   #374
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

I read an article about the soundtrack of An Unexpected Journey, and it stated that when we hear the Nazgul theme at the final confrontation between Thorin and Azog, it's absolutely intended and hints at something bigger that will be part of the next two films. Wondering what that would be. Azog already working for Sauron/Necromancer?
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Old December 30 2012, 07:28 PM   #375
Set Harth
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Re: The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey - Grading & Discussion (Spoilers

Alidar Jarok wrote:
Given the compressed timeline, this would better fit the later time when Saruman authorized the attack rather than the earlier overruling.
We'll probably have seen both of those instances by the time this trilogy is over, and they will indeed have been compressed into a much tighter timeframe. But in both cases it seems that Saruman was plotting to acquire the Ring.

JarodRussell wrote:
Wondering what that would be. Azog already working for Sauron/Necromancer?
I have no idea. Azog kept alive by black magic, perhaps?
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