Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

[R. Star]

^

Ah, yes the silent majority argument. I never found that one convincing wherever applied. Braga's turned out a lot of Trek material to be sure, but that doesn't mean we can't voice a negative opinion just because Braga's name is attached to the work somewhere. For the most part I liked his work better in TNG than in VOY and ENT.

Really what I'm reading from your post exodus is that you don't like some fan's opinions so you're trying to invalidate them? Why is that and why are you the one who gets to do it? Really I think it's the height of arrogance for anyone to tell someone else what they should think or like and dislike.

[exodus]

Star Grinch wrote:

---

^

Ah, yes the silent majority argument. I never found that one convincing wherever applied. Braga's turned out a lot of Trek material to be sure, but that doesn't mean we can't voice a negative opinion just because Braga's name is attached to the work somewhere. For the most part I liked his work better in TNG than in VOY and ENT.

Really what I'm reading from your post exodus is that you don't like some fan's opinions so you're trying to invalidate them? Why is that and why are you the one who gets to do it? Really I think it's the height of arrogance for anyone to tell someone else what they should think or like and dislike.

You can like and dislike whatever you choose but you also can't say it isn't valid if you refuse to look at the argument from a business point of view. It's arrogant to think that you know more about what runs a TV show than those that actually worked on it and to think that we're the only ones watching the show. Do you really think all the members of this site is enough to keep a show in production?

[R. Star]

exodus wrote:

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You can like and dislike whatever you choose but you also can't say isn't valid if you refuse to look at the argument from a business point of view. It's arrogant to think that you know more about what runs a TV show than those that actually worked on it and to think that we're the only ones watching the show. Do you really think all the members of this site is enough to keep a show in production?

Obviously not, but if you alienate the core of your fanbase you can't expect to sustain a franchise either. I really always thought one of the reasons Enterprise got canceled was they couldn't even keep their own fanbase interested. In the end, they're the ones who not only watch the show, but spread the word to the casual fans, buy the products and the such. They lost me midway through season 2 when it was originally airing for example.

[exodus]

Star Grinch wrote:

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Obviously not, but if you alienate the core of your fanbase you can't expect to sustain a franchise either. I really always thought one of the reasons Enterprise got canceled was they couldn't even keep their own fanbase interested. In the end, they're the ones who not only watch the show, but spread the word to the casual fans, buy the products and the such. They lost me midway through season 2 when it was originally airing for example.

Trek has been around for decades, it will always find a new core audience. With every new incarnation it always does. Ent. may have lost it's audience, J.J. Abrams showed they will come back and bring in new ones. I don't think Trek fans bring in a new audience as much as good marketing does.

[R. Star]

Then why was Enterprise canceled again?

[exodus]

Star Grinch wrote:

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Then why was Enterprise canceled again?

Over saturation.
No spin off of a spin off of a spin off ever does well.
The only one to ever do that was Norman Lear.(No wait, Archie's Place was a flop)
Even Robert Patterson former actor on CSI said he hated the idea that they were doing so many spin off's of CSI because it waters down the market.
"Happy Days" had 4 spin offs, does anyone remember the one about Fonzie's guardian angel?
Law & Order had 3, CI & Trial by Jury suffered due to over saturation.
How much of a concept can you put on TV before it becomes too much? Even Berman openly has said he didn't want to put ENT. into production until 3 years after Voy. ended because he knew the audience was saying enough is enough but Paramount forced his hand because they wanted to make more money off of Trek. Berman knew and he warned them. Especially with Trek, how far can you take a concept on a TV show before you start covering the same ground again?

If studios and producers know this fact, then it's factual proof the audience can complain all we wish but in the end those behind the camera still have the final word. We don't run production, we dont run TV. They do.

[Guy Gardener]

Archie Bunkers Place lasted 4 years.

Happy Days Spinnoffs include Laverine and Shirely. Mork and Mindy, Joanie Loves Chachi,Out of the b;llue, blanskies beauies and two Saturday morning catoons about Fonzie.

Enterprise was geting better, but that was becuase berman wasn't allowed on set becuase he made Jolene "uncomfortable"

[exodus]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Enterprise was geting better, but that was becuase berman wasn't allowed on set becuase he made Jolene "uncomfortable"

It was still already too late.
Nobody was hardly watching.

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Happy Days Spinnoffs include Laverine and Shirely. Mork and Mindy, Joanie Loves Chachi,Out of the b;llue, blanskies beauies and two Saturday morning catoons about Fonzie.

I'm impressed.
I've mentioned "Happy Days" here in the past and I usually get: "What's Happy Days?"
However, how successful were all those spin offs?

[Guy Gardener]

Mork and Mindy lasted four years, but the final episode was a surprise cancellation.

As a child I did not understand how a series could be cancelled with out warning, because the cliff hanger seemed intolerable as their escape through time and space completed with their being transformed into voodoo dolls and then NOTHING.

[teacake]

Every time people talk about that era of shows I get this mind numbing drugged flashback of the sheer volume of television I watched as a kid. The shows were always divided into my sister's shows and my shows though we sat next to each other and watched all of it. Happy Days and Laverne and Shirley were my sister's shows, MASH was my show. Mork and Mindy was also my sister's show, I remember I had this antipathy towards the name "Mindy" which made me hand it over to her. The Prisoner was my show, I think my sister was freaked out by people being swallowed by the balls. All Saturday morning cartoons were divided up as well but my memory of those is hazy. I remember lying on the floor in front of them aware that it was brilliantly sunny outside and I was possibly missing something by not being out there. The weekends were always stressful because I hated school so much I felt I had to suck every bit of pleasure out of a weekend I could before having to face Monday.

[Dream]

Star Grinch wrote:

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Then why was Enterprise canceled again?

Enterprise's first two seasons stank IMO.

People were fed up with their Trek shows need three seasons to get "good". It was tolerated in TNG, but people had gotten so tried of that trend when ENT started.

[teacake]

I think these days even 3 episodes to "get good" is a possible death sentence.

[Guy Gardener]

It's not the volume of programming that scares, me it's the TIME.

Monday to Friday in syndication, one episode a day, It takes a year and a half to watch all of Happy Days, or all of MASH, or all of Different Strokes, or all of Benson or all of the facts of Life, which I did, at least a dozen times before I was old enough to drink illegally.

(Well not the facts of life. That was a late edition to 80s syndication.)

A year and a half to watch all of happy days.

I have it on DVD now.

I could watch it in a week if I had something to prove.

But a year and a half?

Wow.

[Dream]

teacake wrote:

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I think these days even 3 episodes to "get good" is a possible death sentence.

Oh, yes.

Back then networks were more willing to give low rated shows more of a chance even if their first seasons were lowly rated. It's swim or sink with shows these days. One of the reasons why I usually wait until I hear a show has gotten a second season before I start watching.

ENT didn't really have this problem. Its ratings started out very strong and just fell.

[Guy Gardener]

You remember Lethal Weapon 3?

before Enterprise started I dictated that I wanted to see a Romulan Ambasador with disruptor rifle in each hand blasting away at the good guys while he's screaming "DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY!"

Enterprise should have started with the Romulans attacking and the Vulcans trying to cover up that the Romulans were just more Vulcans... I read one of Christophers novels last week where he's claiming that the Vulcan previous to the K'Shara(sp?) were indifferentiable to Romulans.