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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old December 17 2012, 10:48 PM   #16
Nacluv
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
The actions are still a mutiny.
Yes. But it's irrelevant. This thread is about how Capt. Kirk would handle a real mutiny under normal circumstances, i.e. no intoxication and no rapid aging.
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Old December 17 2012, 11:02 PM   #17
Nerys Myk
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

Kirk's XO once commandeered his ship and got away with only a slap on the wrist. Kirk's pretty soft.
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Old December 17 2012, 11:45 PM   #18
Blip
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

I had to enter this thread just so I could find out what it was Kirk was "handling" - the main page only shows so many characters....

Imagine my disappointment when I discovered it was merely your average run-of-the-mill mutiny.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:04 AM   #19
JimZipCode
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

BeatleJWOL wrote: View Post
The thread is asking about a mutiny that comes without any alien or strange outside influence.
Nacluv wrote: View Post
This thread is about how Capt. Kirk would handle a real mutiny under normal circumstances, i.e. no intoxication and no rapid aging.
So right away the thread seems pretty un-grounded in the character and the universe of the character. A "normal" Starfleet crew would never mutiny against Kirk; a normal (non- Janice Lester) Kirk would never provoke mutiny from a crew.

Patrick O'Brian's wonderful book Post Captain,the second of the Aubrey-Maturin series (sequel to Master and Commander) has a mutiny situation that Captain Aubrey defuses. That's wonderful reading for thinking about this topic. The situation there was the culmination of a number of factors: a nearly criminal XO who was simultaneously unskilled and tyrannical; a distracted captain; a poorly-built, dangerous ship; an inferior crew consisting of the dregs of the pressgangs; and inferior senior leadership, who was giving the ship missions that it was unsuited to performing.

Star Trek usually has different situations.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:12 AM   #20
Captain Shatner
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
BeatleJWOL wrote: View Post
The thread is asking about a mutiny that comes without any alien or strange outside influence.
Nacluv wrote: View Post
This thread is about how Capt. Kirk would handle a real mutiny under normal circumstances, i.e. no intoxication and no rapid aging.
So right away the thread seems pretty un-grounded in the character and the universe of the character. A "normal" Starfleet crew would never mutiny against Kirk; a normal (non- Janice Lester) Kirk would never provoke mutiny from a crew.
Not necessarily! Have you noticed how many dud captains Starfleet Academy seems to turn out? Almost every fellow captain Kirk meets in TOS is horribly flawed in some way.
So, it stands to reason that at least small percentage of bridge officers, yeomen, and crewmen are capable of leading a mutiny.
Furthermore, would Kirk really do the passive-aggressive thing and stand by while the Enterprise was commandeered, waiting for an opportunity to strike back? I think he would set the ol' phaser to kill and fight back.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:28 AM   #21
Nerys Myk
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

The Enterprise has been commandeered a number of times. By Spock, Norman, Space Hippies, Cherons, M-5 and once by a bunch of kids. Kirk's plans to get it back usually involved out thinking his opponents.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:52 AM   #22
jayrath
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

GR specifically forbade "real" mutiny storylines when he still helmed TOS, believing that a crew of highly skilled astronauts who were all officers (his thinking at the time) would never do so. He also thought, as storytelling, it was pretty amateur-hour.

On the other hand, as soon as TNG launched -- uh, oh! -- alien scorpions are inculcating mutiny at the highest levels of Starfleet!

Anyway, it's fun to imagine some circumstance under which it might occur to TOS Kirk. I just can't come up with a non-mirror universe scenario, though. "Obsession" came closest. And perhaps the crew should have mutinied 30 seconds into "The Enterprise Incident."

(Speaking of the mirror universe, our own Kirk would have likely handled things the same way as the officers there. You want my ship? Fine, meet my security team. I'll talk to you about this later, on the other side of those glowy things that frame the entry to the brig.)
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Old December 18 2012, 02:58 AM   #23
JimZipCode
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

Captain Shatner wrote: View Post
Not necessarily! Have you noticed how many dud captains Starfleet Academy seems to turn out? Almost every fellow captain Kirk meets in TOS is horribly flawed in some way.
So, it stands to reason that at least small percentage of bridge officers, yeomen, and crewmen are capable of leading a mutiny.
Does not stand to reason, "leading a mutiny" is not a capability that just anyone has. But I wonder if we are talking past each other, because we're not using terms the same way. We should clarify the distinction between mutiny (multiple people conspiring to overthrow command) and insubordination (an individual refusing to obey lawful commands).

"Dud" captains is an interesting phrase. I wouldn't characterize Garth or Captain Tracey as "duds".
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Old December 18 2012, 03:18 AM   #24
JimZipCode
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

jayrath wrote: View Post
GR specifically forbade "real" mutiny storylines when he still helmed TOS, believing that a crew of highly skilled astronauts who were all officers (his thinking at the time) would never do so.
I think, at the level he's talking about, I would mostly agree with him. This isn't a casually thrown-together group: these people have worked their asses off to get there. Hell, it's tough to imagine an actual mutiny on a US Navy ship, absent an extraordinary "Crimson Tide" -like situation. And US Navy sailors have not gone thru nearly as much training, or competed nearly as hard, as Starfleet officers & crew.


He also thought, as storytelling, it was pretty amateur-hour.
In addition to spores and what-not, we do get one real, actual mutiny in TOS. The officers of the Enterprise mutiny against a seemingly deranged Kirk in Turnabout Intruder. We the audience (and eventually Spock) knew that wasn't the "real" Kirk; but the crew did not know. Yet they mutinied. I don't mean Spock & McCoy & Scotty, I'm thinking of the next tier down. Sulu and the lieutenants.

Think how extraordinary a situation that was. The captain was behaving erratically, the XO first doubted him then openly opposed him, and the captain issued unlawful orders. (Or at least Sulu's dialogue suggests the orders are unlawful, when he talks about there being no violations of General Order 4.) Sulu et al staged their passive rebellion after Spock & McCoy & Scotty were locked up. They didn't conspire with the senior officers; their objection was the plan to have executions.

A lot of people object to portions of Turnabout Intruder, but I think the trial and mutiny aspects of the episode are especially well done. Not "amateur hour" at all: but it took a hell of a lot of of setup to get there. In the normal course of hour-long episodes, that would be a trick you could pull only once every few seasons. So I'm saying, I mostly agree with GR, but the exception can be interesting, with very careful plotting.
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Old December 19 2012, 12:11 AM   #25
Captain Shatner
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
In addition to spores and what-not, we do get one real, actual mutiny in TOS. The officers of the Enterprise mutiny against a seemingly deranged Kirk in Turnabout Intruder. We the audience (and eventually Spock) knew that wasn't the "real" Kirk; but the crew did not know. Yet they mutinied. I don't mean Spock & McCoy & Scotty, I'm thinking of the next tier down. Sulu and the lieutenants.

Think how extraordinary a situation that was. The captain was behaving erratically, the XO first doubted him then openly opposed him, and the captain issued unlawful orders. (Or at least Sulu's dialogue suggests the orders are unlawful, when he talks about there being no violations of General Order 4.) Sulu et al staged their passive rebellion after Spock & McCoy & Scotty were locked up. They didn't conspire with the senior officers; their objection was the plan to have executions.

A lot of people object to portions of Turnabout Intruder, but I think the trial and mutiny aspects of the episode are especially well done. Not "amateur hour" at all: but it took a hell of a lot of of setup to get there. In the normal course of hour-long episodes, that would be a trick you could pull only once every few seasons. So I'm saying, I mostly agree with GR, but the exception can be interesting, with very careful plotting.
Very true! I had completely forgotten about Turnabout Intruder! I guess I had blanked out that particular episode...all I really remember is being so disappointed about how the series ended. But no, you're absolutely right, actual mutinies do seem to be a bit rare aboard Starfleet vessels, now that I think about it.
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Old December 19 2012, 09:24 AM   #26
Captain Rob
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

I'm remined of a line from an episode of TNG. Spoken by a long dead famous psychiatrist.

"Kill zem.... Kill zem all."
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Old December 20 2012, 12:55 AM   #27
jayrath
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
A lot of people object to portions of Turnabout Intruder, but I think the trial and mutiny aspects of the episode are especially well done. Not "amateur hour" at all: but it took a hell of a lot of of setup to get there. In the normal course of hour-long episodes, that would be a trick you could pull only once every few seasons. So I'm saying, I mostly agree with GR, but the exception can be interesting, with very careful plotting.
You and I agree completely. I think GR was thinking of a "real" non-spore, non plak tow, non android-replacement, non-soul-takeover mutiny. (Holy cow, glad I'm not captain!)
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Old December 29 2012, 09:05 PM   #28
Dale Sams
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Re: How Would Captain Kirk Handle a Mutiny?

How would he have handled it? Not well, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bZKEhgieoc
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