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Old December 27 2012, 07:37 PM   #31
Merlanthe
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Ah, but the Ilia probe was unfamiliar with Carbon units - the same carbon units that have always formed the basis of a Borg drone. If V'Ger was from the Borg, why would it be so unfamiliar with a core part of Borg physiology?

Besides, do you really see the Borg finding an ancient space probe with laughable technology and then they decide to be nice and help it out?
Thats why i said the Borg homeworld before they became assimilation junkies. How do you know that the Borg have always used carbon units for their drones? The way they were presented in Q who its entirely possible they started out as sentient machines and only later converted organic lifeforms into drones when they began exploring space and encountering organic lifeforms. V'ger could have come accross the Borg homeworld before they had encountered any sentient organic lifeforms.

Besides that wasnt a serious theory just a funny coincidence that i noticed whilst watching the movie (though it probably is my own head fanon now :P )
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Old December 27 2012, 11:53 PM   #32
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: The Borg: Wondering....

Didn't the Borg Queen once say that they were once, organic and weak? It seems that the Borg did indeed start out as the carbon units that V'Ger was so confused by. And anyway, even if your idea is correct, why would a race of fully mechanical aliens want to become half organic when they find out that organic life is so widespread? To fit in better?
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Old December 28 2012, 04:54 AM   #33
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

I dunno, organic components have some advantages over mechanical components. Mechanical components have the computational speed, ease of programming and maintainability but organic neural networks have the advantage in terms of abstract reasoning and absorption of novel concepts. I can see a fully mechanical race wanting to take advantage of that.

But I always got the impression the Borg started out as an organic species. Although advantage us organics have, we can spring ourselves out of basic amino acids and lipids and all it takes is a few billion years.
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Old December 28 2012, 02:03 PM   #34
at Quark's
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

A'Tun-Te wrote: View Post
The Borg should have been 100 times the threat they posed during the entire series.
From "thousands of planets" they assimilated, at least ten would've been evolved beyond our imagination, giving the Borg knowledge and technologies beyond our ability to divert.
I don't know that. The more advanced a species would be, the more the Borg would gain from them, but also the more improbable it would be the Borg could defeat them in the first place (that is, assuming that the species in question doesn't want to be assimilated). For instance, I don't think the Borg are capable of assimilating the Voth civiliziation or cizilizations advanced even more than that. So I would postulate that there is a kind of upper bound on the technological capabilities of civilizations that they can assimilate, and that the gap between that upper bound and the federation's capabilities is apparently not unbridgeable (even if our heroes succeed only with unorthodox approaches and lots of risktaking).
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Old December 28 2012, 03:22 PM   #35
R. Star
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Man I really, really wish Voyager had done a Borg origin story.

I imagine the Borg started as sort of Communism taken to an extreme. The original Borg probably formed a Collective for reasons similar to the formation of the Federation. To acquire knowledge, to set aside our differences. Then, like Futurama's Santa, it became something nobody intended it to be, and it calculated the best course of action was to absorb everything else in the universe.

I don't think the Queen ruined the Borg, at least not in First Contact. I think the ruination of the Borg is...well, Dark Frontier. It's the first episode that really weakened the Borg just to make it possible for them to stay part of the show.
You should read the Destiny novels. They detail the origins of the Collective and it's really more tragic than anything else.

It also sort of explained the concept of the Queen, and why she won't stay dead, convincingly enough.

But yeah, what ruined the Borg in the series is overexposure really. They show up once, they're scary powerful, threatening and the good guys were lucky to stay alive. They show up ten times, the good guys beating them off becomes just routine.
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Old December 28 2012, 03:23 PM   #36
A'Tun-Te
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

Good question.
Once some fella asked me: who'd win: Sith or Borg...
Answer is obvious: the Borg adapts.
The ONLY species that ever harmed (truly harmed) were the Fluidic Space critters: Species 8472.
It was also the ONLY species that resisted the nano-invasion when the Borg tried to assimilate them.
Even a superior species would fall under the Borg, simply because: "So, 2500 Cubes failed? No problem, send in 2.500.000 others..."
Like ants they'd simply swarm the race, if the cost was lower than the gain.
And: there's the adaptivity.
Even multi-fase weaponry had only 3 to 5 shots before the Borg adapted.

Further on: I forgot in which episode, but a Borg said there are thousands of Borg Hubs.
If one thinks how massive a hub was... not a chance a race could overcome the Borg.

Unless they hacked the Collective.
But both Humans and non-humans tried this before, with fairly poor result.

As for the Queen: for some reason I see her 'slave' to a superbeing/-computer -if the theory that they evolved from a race that build a computer which stood up against his masters is in effect, and which I personally prefer, as said earlier, especially since this theory predates the IMHO silly books by FAR- which is the actual dominant factor in the Collective.
Maybe a computer as big as a solar system (linked up through WiFi, lol), covering all it's planets, mainly for data storage and security systems (firewalls to make a silly example).
Imagine this computer has bio-brain cells...
We as humans today try to make these, so it is logical the Borg already has this 'technology'.

And: for Borg being carbon based, is not correct.
Their armor is, but inside is living tissue.
A humanoid...
But they do not want to become more fleshy, nor more technological, rather both in a perfect marriage.
Technology has advantages over tissue, in some ways.
Tissue has other advantages over tech.
Combining them into the perfect being, is the only solution.
Or, to put it in terms of an episode: Best of Both Worlds.
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Old December 28 2012, 04:00 PM   #37
at Quark's
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

A'Tun-Te wrote: View Post
Good question.
Even a superior species would fall under the Borg, simply because: "So, 2500 Cubes failed? No problem, send in 2.500.000 others..."
I agree that superior numbers can overcome superior technology. But only to a degree. It also depends upon how superior that species is, 2.500.000 cubes won't do you any good if the other species has the power to simply think them, or the entire borg collective for that matter out of existence (like the douwd did with another race) -- or do it by pushing a simple button, whatever.

Which brings up an interesting question in itself. How would the Douwd or the Q view the Borg ? And conversely, how would the Borg view them ?
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Old December 28 2012, 04:02 PM   #38
T'Girl
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

at Quark's wrote: View Post
but also the more improbable it would be the Borg could defeat them in the first place
The 24th century Federation would appear to be right on the edge of what the Borg are incapable of assimilating.
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Old December 29 2012, 05:31 PM   #39
A'Tun-Te
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

at Quark's wrote: View Post
Which brings up an interesting question in itself. How would the Douwd or the Q view the Borg ? And conversely, how would the Borg view them ?
Probably as very annoying.
But nothing more than mere being a heap of mosquitoes, I guess?
On the other hand: Q being omnipotent, is he nano-probe resistant?
And if not: what would a Q-Borg be like?
A godly calculator? XD
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Old December 29 2012, 06:14 PM   #40
at Quark's
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

at Quark's wrote: View Post
And if not: what would a Q-Borg be like?
A godly calculator? XD
Omnipotent yet without individuality, I suppose

The Borg, however, would have run out of goals. Having reached perfection and presumably assimilating the entire universe in an instant, what are they going to do now?
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Old December 29 2012, 08:54 PM   #41
R. Star
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

A'Tun-Te wrote: View Post
at Quark's wrote: View Post
Which brings up an interesting question in itself. How would the Douwd or the Q view the Borg ? And conversely, how would the Borg view them ?
Probably as very annoying.
But nothing more than mere being a heap of mosquitoes, I guess?
On the other hand: Q being omnipotent, is he nano-probe resistant?
And if not: what would a Q-Borg be like?
A godly calculator? XD
This has already been done.

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Old December 29 2012, 09:44 PM   #42
T'Girl
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

A'Tun-Te wrote: View Post
And: for Borg being carbon based, is not correct. Their armor is, but inside is living tissue.
99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six elements ...

  1. Oxygen (65%)
  2. Carbon (18%)
  3. Hydrogen (10%)
  4. Nitrogen (3%)
  5. Calcium (1.5%)
  6. Phosphorus (1.0%)
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Old December 29 2012, 10:01 PM   #43
Mr Silver
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
A'Tun-Te wrote: View Post
And: for Borg being carbon based, is not correct. Their armor is, but inside is living tissue.
99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six elements ...

  1. Oxygen (65%)
  2. Carbon (18%)
  3. Hydrogen (10%)
  4. Nitrogen (3%)
  5. Calcium (1.5%)
  6. Phosphorus (1.0%)
Indeed, although it's very likely that the Borg don't just stop at Carbon-based lifeforms. Can you imagine a Horta Borg?
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Old December 29 2012, 10:08 PM   #44
at Quark's
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Re: The Borg: Wondering....

Mr Silver wrote: View Post

Indeed, although it's very likely that the Borg don't just stop at Carbon-based lifeforms. Can you imagine a Horta Borg?
For that matter, is species 8472 carbon-based ?
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Old December 29 2012, 11:54 PM   #45
A'Tun-Te
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: The Borg: Wondering....

I think, rather silicon based, or something similar?
A dunno...

A Horta-Borg would be unhandy... literally... XD
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