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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 26 2012, 08:09 AM   #46
Sci
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
In America we (wisely) placed our federal capital outside of any of our states
Funny how the people who actually live in D.C. don't think it's wise.

ETA:

I am astonished that anyone would think that Earth doesn't have its own government within the Federation. Apparently some people think it's possible to have a non-federal Federation.
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Old December 26 2012, 08:19 AM   #47
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
From Rapture.

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.
They just chose people at random?

Or they chose the most qualified?

Or they chose the most influential who has greased the most palms?

Choose is a very vague word.

I'd say there's an 8 percent chance that in this context that "chose" means "duly and democratically elect".
For whatever it's worth, in the books the First Minister of Bajor just appointed this councilor. No votes, no approval or anything. And I'd say personal favoritism did play a role in this selection.
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Old December 26 2012, 09:05 AM   #48
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

And then from this two parter we kinda know that the UFP is a councillor who is told that he or she is on top, which is a type of voting in the way Russia went through 15 premiere's between 1949 and 1956... "Sigh"

So planetary leaders pick their buddies who might suddenly at any point graduate into said planetary leaders Boss, so these Planetary Leaders had best make sure that their buddy is really their buddy, but if they pick some pratt who they can push around, then it's unlikely that that councillor will ever become president, which is beneficial to the Presidents homeworld to say some.
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Old December 26 2012, 10:46 AM   #49
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Star Grinch wrote: View Post
For whatever it's worth, in the books the First Minister of Bajor just appointed this councilor.
Wasn't it like a brother-in-law, or ex-lover, or first-cousin, or someone like that?

Ah, politics as usual.


Last edited by T'Girl; December 26 2012 at 11:06 AM.
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Old December 26 2012, 02:37 PM   #50
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Star Grinch wrote: View Post
For whatever it's worth, in the books the First Minister of Bajor just appointed this councilor.
Wasn't it like a brother-in-law, or ex-lover, or first-cousin, or someone like that?

Ah, politics as usual.

It was her ex-husband actually. Which the only reason they were stated to break up is because it was General Krim(that guy from the Circle and Siege), and her political career would've been dead being associated with him at the time. So yeah, that's just as bad.
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Old December 26 2012, 04:36 PM   #51
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

^ Actually, Krim wasn't her first choice. The first died just after she arrived on Earth and some of Asarem's other choices had joined Starfleet.
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Old December 26 2012, 05:27 PM   #52
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Star Grinch wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
From Rapture.

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.
They just chose people at random?

Or they chose the most qualified?

Or they chose the most influential who has greased the most palms?

Choose is a very vague word.

I'd say there's an 8 percent chance that in this context that "chose" means "duly and democratically elect".
For whatever it's worth, in the books the First Minister of Bajor just appointed this councilor. No votes, no approval or anything.
Not exactly. Normally, Bajoran law requires the First Minister to get the approval of the Chamber of Ministers to appoint any off-world representatives; when the Republic of Bajor joined the Federation, this was interpreted to include the Federation Councillor from the Republic of Bajor. But the Chamber was in recess, the Federation Council was about to begin its session, and Federation law prevented a Councillor from joining mid-session. So the First Minister made a recess appointment that would expire sooner than normal, during a Chamber session, and which would thereafter require Chamber approval.
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Old December 26 2012, 07:58 PM   #53
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Sci wrote: View Post
the Federation Council ... Federation law prevented a Councillor from joining mid-session.
Would that be the yearly session?

It would be ridiculous to have a rule that required a member world to have no representation on the council for the majority of a year if their representative died (or some other event) early in a given session.

What if the member replaced their rep for some reason, a change in administration back home perhaps? They're out of the game for the rest of the year?

Even if the rule only applied to first time new member reps, it wouldn't make sense for the new member to have no voice until the next session begins. They should be a fully represented from day one.

Given the distance between stars and speed of communication and travel (passager ships might be slower than starships), it might make sense for the Federation Council to have, in addition to the member world's primary representative, a deputy/vice representative sent to the Council at the same time. Ready to step into the primary's shoes as quickly as possible.

Which ever of the authors who thought up that particular story didn't think it through.

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Old December 27 2012, 06:10 AM   #54
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
the Federation Council ... Federation law prevented a Councillor from joining mid-session.
Would that be the yearly session?

It would be ridiculous to have a rule that required a member world to have no representation on the council for the majority of a year if their representative died (or some other event) early in a given session.
It would be. It was, in my view, a contrived plot device used to create a sense of tension and urgency to the story that was unnecessary.

What if the member replaced their rep for some reason, a change in administration back home perhaps?
The novel in question -- Bajor: Fragments and Omens, from Volume II of Worlds of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine -- seems to be implying, IIRC, that this cannot happen; the Member government determines how a Federation Councillor will be chosen for a term of office, but the Councillor cannot be removed from office by that Member government during that term.

Which ever of the authors who thought up that particular story didn't think it through.
J. Noah Kym, IIRC. And I agree.
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Old December 27 2012, 08:53 PM   #55
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Thank you.
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Old December 28 2012, 09:25 PM   #56
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

The claim that Earth would not have representation if it did not have a leader of its own sounds ill conceived. If anything, Earth would have better representation than any other world, as its direct representative would be at the very highest level!

Local defense forces do not seem to feature in Star Trek at all. When defenses at Vulcan or Betazed are mentioned, no reason is given for us to think that these would not be Starfleet forces. On the other hand, when such forces are discussed, the infantry element never really enters the picture, as it serves no tactical role in the situation: every local fight ever described in the above fashion hinges on the presence or absence of space forces. Perhaps local ground forces might exist, for those exceptional situations where ground forces are not irrelevant? It's odd, though, that they are never mentioned let alone shown, neither in a "home guard" role (which would have been prominent in "Paradise Lost") nor even in a police role.

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Old December 28 2012, 10:08 PM   #57
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

So there doesn't need to be a mayor of New York, a Governor of New York, or a president of the USA because the UN is sitting in New York, and perhaps the President should be the UN Ambassador because his proper job can be clumped into the weekends surely?

Go back to that quote from Rapture.

"The Malitia has to be absorbed into Starfleet."

They're not just talking about people, but ships too.

Petitioning worlds have to hand over their militaries and I'm guessing their shipyards too, which is why the design for starships gets a little weird now and then.

Once you spread those Bajoran ships around, and then disperse the Bajoran manpower through out the entire fleet, I doubt even half the Star fleet defence force stationed at/near Bajor would be Bajoran.

If Bajor left the Federation... How much of their shit would they get back?
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Old December 29 2012, 12:44 AM   #58
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post

If Bajor left the Federation... How much of their shit would they get back?
This is actually a very interesting question. How would the Federation handle the issue of secession?
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Old December 29 2012, 01:00 AM   #59
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

^ I'm sure it's voluntary.

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Old December 29 2012, 01:38 AM   #60
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

I dunno, historically even the most democratic of governments don't just allow a part of the country to leave on a whim and I just can't see the Federation endorsing a secession clause.

I definitely could see Section 31 arranging accidents for anyone who starts voicing such views.
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