Starting on Deep Space Nine

[R. Star]

Captain Nebula wrote:

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Dax's personality markedly changes at the end of the 6th season.

Personality change? Well I -guess- you could call it that.

[Tosk]

Captain Nebula wrote:

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I think it's third season when Sisko turns into A Man Called Hawk. Or is that 'returns to'?

Technically, that's fourth season. Late S3 he gets the beard, season 4 he adds the bald.

[DalekJim]

TheGodBen wrote:

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Honest advice? Don't go into DS9 expecting a shining example of serialised television, it's a semi-serialised patchwork of mostly good ideas and some bad ones. For a Star Trek series, it is far and away the best at continuity and story arcs, major events do matter in future episodes, but because the show is grounded in Star Trek's usual episodic style, it sometimes takes a while for plots to be followed up on. A non-spoilery example is the story of a recurring character that betrays Sisko in one episode, but that story isn't followed up at all for a whole year, at which point we're expected to believe that Sisko has been obsessing about that betrayal all that time. Compared to modern serialised shows, DS9 comes across as somewhat amateurish. The show's strength is in that the writers were really good at taking loose plot and character threads and tying them together with unrelated threads to forge a grander narrative. There are unexpected turns on the journey, but they all (well, most of them) make sense and add something to the show's core.

Most importantly of all, DS9 makes the Star Trek universe feel alive, it's more than just a random jumble of planets, anomalies, and adventurers. Deep Space Nine is a place where people live, they have jobs, they learn, they grow, they have fun, and they struggle. All the major races get developed, both as governments and individuals. This framework allows the characters to flourish and develop in interesting ways, including complete transformations for some. There are characters in What You Leave Behind that you wouldn't recognise from watching Emissary, but you don't have trouble believing those transformations because you witness the characters being shaped by the events they're involved in.

That is why us Niners love the show.

Excellent post, I completely agree. While DS9 is obviously not a pre-planned arc show in the way Babylon 5 was, the writers did a great job of looking at past episodes and tying things together so it looked like a cohesive narrative. The X-Files tried to do the same thing with it's mythology and completely fell on it's arse as the writers would always forget stuff so nothing fit together. Making it up as you go along is a perfectly fine way of writing a show, as long as the writers always keep in mind past continuity points.

About S1, the brushing aside of the wormhole/Prophets plotline is one of the weirdest things in DS9. It's discovered in Emissary and treated as some great, mysterious miracle. By the next episode, and for the rest of the season, it's treated as mundane as we would treat a toaster.

[royalfan5]

So I've gotten through Q-Less. I enjoyed Babel and Captive Pursuit much more than Q-Less. especially Captive Pursuit. It seemed to me that Captive Pursuit was able to do a classic exploring type story within the confines of the station. I don't have a lot say about Babel I guess. I enjoy Q a lot more when he is trying to make some sort of real point instead just being an irritant, and the whole episode seemed to me that they just felt they needed more to tie the series to existing Trek than anything else.

[R. Star]

royalfan5 wrote:

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So I've gotten through Q-Less. I enjoyed Babel and Captive Pursuit much more than Q-Less. especially Captive Pursuit. It seemed to me that Captive Pursuit was able to do a classic exploring type story within the confines of the station. I don't have a lot say about Babel I guess. I enjoy Q a lot more when he is trying to make some sort of real point instead just being an irritant, and the whole episode seemed to me that they just felt they needed more to tie the series to existing Trek than anything else.

This happened a lot with season 1 of DS9. The Duras Sisters, Q, Vash, Lwaxana Troi, all popping in with no real purpose other than to say "Hey this is Star Trek too!" At least when Gowron shows up during season 4 there's a point to it.

Really when DS9 finds it's own identity and starts having it's own guest stars reoccurring so much they have their own character arcs and development, is when the good stories come. Even though Dukat is introduced in Emissary it really isn't until season 2 he starts to fill out the primary antagonist role.

[DalekJim]

Captive Pursuit is genuinely excellent but a lot of DS9 S1 is just TNG on a space-station. Those mediocre episodes are usually saved by excellent character interaction though which was great from the very beginning.

Babel is almost comically bad. A virus that makes people talk jibberish... really?

[Tosk]

DalekJim wrote:

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Babel is almost comically bad. A virus that makes people talk jibberish... really?

Why is that bad? Aphasia can be caused by a virus right here, right now. It's not some crazy out-there sci-fi thing.

[DalekJim]

It wasn't so much the premise but the execution. An episode that explored how vital communication is to us could have been excellent but it was a really generic disease-of-the-week episode. Kira was badass though and it's always funny to see everybody be a douche to O'Brien for no reason.

[royalfan5]

I also got Dax watched last night, and I thought it was a good charcter building excerise, especially given the layered nature of the symbiont.

I've gotten through the Nagus now. I enjoyed the Nagus quite a bit, as far as developing the Ferengi. Move Along Home failed to impress, and The Passenger was ok, I guess.

[mythme]

The Passenger cemented the fan reaction to Bashir. From the start he came across as a genuine jackass; juvenile, awkward and (aside from his medical ethic) unprofessional. The Passenger just added another layer of loathing because...he...talks...so...slow as Vantika. It isn't until Past Tense that Bashir "grows up". After that, Siddig is superb, IMO. After such a rough start, Bashir became one of my favorite Trek characters.

[R. Star]

royalfan5 wrote:

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I also got Dax watched last night, and I thought it was a good charcter building excerise, especially given the layered nature of the symbiont.

I've gotten through the Nagus now. I enjoyed the Nagus quite a bit, as far as developing the Ferengi. Move Along Home failed to impress, and The Passenger was ok, I guess.

Dax was a good episode. The "trial" aspect of it did seem kind of forced, but it was a good character development exercise.

The Nagus, was a silly fun episode. And yeah, it did flesh out the Ferengi a bit beyond those snarling trolls we saw in TNG. Rest assured Grand Nagus Zek will be back.

Move Along Home... beyond making fun of the Alamarain dance, there's not much good to say about this one.

The Passenger... I dunno, call me weird, but I kinda liked this one. Guess I like murder mystery episodes and this was kinda like that. Season 1 Bashir is a bit of an aloof dolt, sure... but unlike the other series DS9 made an active effort to make their unpopular character better.

[royalfan5]

I wrapped up the first season. I see why everyone always holds up Duet as an example of good DS9. I will probably start the second season in a couple of days.

[TheGodBen]

One other piece of advice: You might not want to watch the special features as they contain spoilers for the whole show. For example, the Kira featurette that comes with season 1 details a great deal of her character arc up until the finale. While you may know a lot of the broad strokes already, there might be some information in those features that ruins a twist, and DS9 does have some great twists.

[DalekJim]

royalfan5 wrote:

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I wrapped up the first season. I see why everyone always holds up Duet as an example of good DS9. I will probably start the second season in a couple of days.

The second season starts awesome, then sinks in to seemingly endless, empty, BEYOND tedious filler..... then ends with a string of 8 or so excellent episodes that redeem the whole season.

[Sindatur]

DalekJim wrote:

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The second season starts awesome, then sinks in to seemingly endless, empty, BEYOND tedious filler..... then ends with a string of 8 or so excellent episodes that redeem the whole season.

Depends on if you like the Bajoran Politics and Religion. While it's true, there are more awesome episodes per season later on, I like the Bajoran Politics and Religion stuff, so, I find the first two seasons of DS9 more enjoyable than many fans do, and while I like the stuff that comes from S3 on a great deal, I do miss the Bajoran Politics and Religion when it gets pushed to the back burner