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Old December 26 2012, 09:52 AM   #196
Lynx
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

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They replaced the only well developed character on the show with the subsequent only well developed character on the show.

I'd say the quality remained exactly the same.
How was Kes well developed?
Even the writing staff themselves admitted they messed up on her development.
Kes was as well developed as any other main character on the show.

As for the "writing" staff, well they are veeeeeeeery reliable, aren't they.
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Old December 26 2012, 10:07 AM   #197
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I agree, they developed her as the childlike ingenue quite well. I think she was better developed than Tom.
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Old December 26 2012, 10:18 AM   #198
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

She probably just went to the gym more.
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Old December 27 2012, 03:54 AM   #199
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Kes was more interesting because she was more different from everyone else. At the beginning Chakotay's only role was to tell Maquis not to rebel, at the end his only role was to tell Janeway when she was going zany. His only development was stereotypical mysticism.

Kes started out as an innocent, but what if she struggled to maintain that innocence as she started to gain more and more telekinetic power? That's a missed opportunity there.

Story of Voyager character development, I guess. The only characters who really were used to their full potential were Janeway, Doctor and Seven.

And I suppose Neelix, since he had no potential.
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Old December 27 2012, 07:07 AM   #200
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
They replaced the only well developed character on the show with the subsequent only well developed character on the show.

I'd say the quality remained exactly the same.
How was Kes well developed?
Even the writing staff themselves admitted they messed up on her development.
Kes was as well developed as any other main character on the show.

As for the "writing" staff, well they are veeeeeeeery reliable, aren't they.
That's not saying much, considering that some of the characters on the show, Harry Kim and Chakotay in particular are some of the least developed characters in Star Trek history.

Again the problem with Kes is are few episodes about what makes her tick, rather then episodes where things happen to her and how she reacts to these things. There was less of character study with her then other Star Trek characters. This would have easy to remedy, but the writers seemed to have no interest in doing so, so Kes had the potential to be a great character, but the writers failed to follow through. She certainly a better character then Harry Kim or Chakotay.

I think this video has a good explanation on how Kes could have been used:

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...at-kes-5381557

Last edited by The Overlord; December 27 2012 at 06:34 PM.
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Old December 27 2012, 09:17 AM   #201
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post

Kes started out as an innocent, but what if she struggled to maintain that innocence as she started to gain more and more telekinetic power? That's a missed opportunity there.
Do you mean what if she was tempted to do stuff that would leave her tainted by bloodshed?
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Old December 27 2012, 11:57 AM   #202
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Even when Kes was going Dark Phoenix, she wasn't going Dark Phoenix.

There was 10 minutes in Coldfire when Tannis taught Kes that she could get high from combusting matter... Which I tend to believe is what happened to thier planet and Why Caretaker chose to retard their natural abilities, if it wasn't some Nacene Eugenics program which overclocked the Ocampa, otherwise what was their terrible debt that can never be repaid?
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Old December 27 2012, 06:13 PM   #203
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
How was Kes well developed?
Even the writing staff themselves admitted they messed up on her development.
Kes was as well developed as any other main character on the show.

As for the "writing" staff, well they are veeeeeeeery reliable, aren't they.
That's not saying much, considering that some of the characters on the show, Harry Kim and Chakotay in particular are some of the least developed characters in Star Trek history.

Again the problem with Kes is are few episodes about what makes her tick, rather then episodes where things happen to her and how she reacts to these things. There was less of character study with her then other Star Trek. This would have easy to remedy, but the writers seemed to have no interest in doing so, so Kes had the potential to be a great character, but the writers failed to follow through. She certainly a better character then Harry Kim or Chakotay.

I think this video has a good explanation on how Kes could have been used:

http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated...at-kes-5381557
Good video. I've seen it before.

On the 14th August I actually added a link to that video at another location on the Kes Internet Support Society's forum (unfortunately that link is broken now). It's a good description of the character and some really good points in it when it comes to what the character was and what she could have been. I don't share all opinions in the video but I find a lot which I can agree with.

As I see it, they should have omitted or got rid of the silly short lifespan and instead focus on her personality which was the most interesting with the character. She could have had some limited powers, just like these she showed in "Persistence Of Vision" and at the end of "Cold Fire".

According to the video, dumping Kes was a loss for the writers as well. It's possible. The actions of the writers when it comes to Kes is confusing, to say the least. They could come up with decent kes stories up to the last minute of her time on the show, then all of a sudden they lost those abilities. That's one of the reasons I don't believe their statements of "having difficulties to write for the character". It's more like they've been ordered to come up with such a statement.

OK, Kes could have been written better. But she's not the only character suffering from erratic writing, in fact all of them did.

For different reasons, I was about to totally lose interest in Voyager and everything considering it some months ago and therefore I've spent some time going through all episodes of TNG (I'm into season 4 now). When I compare TNG and Voyager and the writing for both shows, I see inspiration and a direction for all characters and the whole show for TNG while I see some desperate twists and turns from a tired staff of writers in Voyager. The characters of Voyager had better premises than TNG's, still the writers couldn't really handle them or the show itself. It was "let's try this, we haven't had that before" and when it didn't work, it was "ah, forget it and drop it, the viewers won't notice". In the end, they all seem to give up, sitting out the event and waiting for it to end while planning for their new pet project "Enterprise" and showing the finger to the Voyager fans on two occasions ("Fury" and "Endgame").

So Kes wasn't the only character suffering from erratic writing. The whole show did. Still, the show has a certain charm and I do find the characters great.

When it comes to Chakotay and Kim, Chakotay had great potential but it was never used. he could have been a new Riker but they never used that opportunity. As for Kim, he's better in the books where he actually does something, like coming up with ideas and solutions and are involved in some interesting adventures too. (Unfortunately, he ends up badly injured in many of them but that's another story.)

As for the video, it pleases me that the creator of the video dismissed "Fury" totally. As I see it, that parody of an episode isn't even worth to discuss or analyze in a serious attempt to analyze the show.
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Old December 27 2012, 08:19 PM   #204
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post

Kes was as well developed as any other main character on the show.
Agreed.
She was as underdeveloped and pushed into the background just as much as Chakotay, Kim, Neelix & Tuvok.

Lynx wrote: View Post

As I see it, they should have omitted or got rid of the silly short lifespan and instead focus on her personality which was the most interesting with the character. She could have had some limited powers, just like these she showed in "Persistence Of Vision" and at the end of "Cold Fire".

According to the video, dumping Kes was a loss for the writers as well. It's possible. The actions of the writers when it comes to Kes is confusing, to say the least. They could come up with decent kes stories up to the last minute of her time on the show, then all of a sudden they lost those abilities. That's one of the reasons I don't believe their statements of "having difficulties to write for the character". It's more like they've been ordered to come up with such a statement.

OK, Kes could have been written better. But she's not the only character suffering from erratic writing, in fact all of them did.

So Kes wasn't the only character suffering from erratic writing. The whole show did. Still, the show has a certain charm and I do find the characters great.
This is all easy to say and accuse in retrospect.
When you're writing a series as it's in production things are different. It's proven fact people don't see mistakes or missteps until after they're done. Things that sound good on paper can can be a train wreck upon execution.
I think anybody that watched X-Files, HEROES & LOST knows this to be true.
Besides, if they were going to lie about it the majority of people don't lie by putting the blame back on themselves.
They showed they had trouble writing for Chakotay, Kim, Neelix add a few others but fact they couldn't write better for Kes is suspicious?
What made her so special that hey suddenly could shake off writers block just for her and not anybody else?

I also don't agree about getting rid of her life span because even without powers, it's what made her alien. By focusing on her life span it would have enhanced her personality because it would continue to bring up the issue of mortality. What would you do or how would you live your life if you knew you only had 9 years? Would you still spend you time with the EMH, who's has less life experience than you or would you spend more time around Tuvok and Janeway who have seen and done more than you could imagine? Having never even seen the sun until recently, wouldn't star charting hold more appeal than being a nurse? Couldn't she have been a nurse on Ocampa?

So yes, I do believe they didn't know how to write for Kes because they began to limit her desire. Kes that dared to questioned her peoples perception of God(the Caretaker) didn't exist anymore. The girl that took charge of her life in "Caretaker" was crying "I don't know what to do, I'm so confused" by "Tuvix." She left her own people/family and home behind without question but in by the end of "Darkling" she decides leaving those she loves isn't the best course of action. WTF!?!

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Kes started out as an innocent, but what if she struggled to maintain that innocence as she started to gain more and more telekinetic power? That's a missed opportunity there.
I fully agree with this.
In "Caretaker" she was all "We used to have great mental powers" & "How great it would be if we had them back again, the Ocampa could be independent"

Then by "Coldfire" is was all "I'm so scared that I have mental powers, so I'll never use them again". WTF!?!

In less than 2 years, the girl that was bold enough to leave her world and explore her potential was gone. No personality and no powers IMO made Kes a dull girl.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
At the beginning Chakotay's only role was to tell Maquis not to rebel, at the end his only role was to tell Janeway when she was going zany. His only development was stereotypical mysticism.
I think much of Chakotay's potential was at it's best when Seska was around. She was a great antagonist for him. After they killed her off, so did much of the better part of him.
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Last edited by exodus; December 28 2012 at 03:05 AM.
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Old December 28 2012, 01:40 AM   #205
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The writers seemed to think the only two choices were 'Use powers to do evil' or 'Do not use powers at all'.

The third, more interesting choice is similar to the True Q route. She tries to resist using her abilities. She comes across a village dying of famine and uses her telekinesis to spur growth because she can't bear to see them starve. But then she sees somebody attacking a defenseless person in an alley, about to kill him. She reacts, uses her telekinesis to stop the attack, and in doing so accidentally kills the attacker.

Incidents like this tempt her with the feeling of superiority Tannis had, competing against her fear and desire to stay connected to people. Her powers start to take her full blown 'Gandalf if he had the ring'.

Maybe too dark for the Voyager writers but would have been more interesting.

I don't think Endgame was a bad episode. It was, at the very least, the logical conclusion of established precedents.
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Old December 28 2012, 01:53 AM   #206
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The writers seemed to think the only two choices were 'Use powers to do evil' or 'Do not use powers at all'.

The third, more interesting choice is similar to the True Q route. She tries to resist using her abilities. She comes across a village dying of famine and uses her telekinesis to spur growth because she can't bear to see them starve. But then she sees somebody attacking a defenseless person in an alley, about to kill him. She reacts, uses her telekinesis to stop the attack, and in doing so accidentally kills the attacker.

Incidents like this tempt her with the feeling of superiority Tannis had, competing against her fear and desire to stay connected to people. Her powers start to take her full blown 'Gandalf if he had the ring'.
Great idea but I think the writers would then have to face: "Can this idea be drawn out for seven years?" or "Is there more to Kes than just her powers?"

The audience will also ask, if Kes is so powerful then is there anything she can't do? Why can't she just fix everything for them? Why can't she just send them home? She then becomes get out of jail free gimmick like Seven's nano's which some complain made her to much of a Mary Sue.
How do you limit a character that has powers close to that of Q?
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Old December 28 2012, 10:19 AM   #207
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

[QUOTE=exodus;7451899]
Lynx wrote: View Post

Kes was as well developed as any other main character on the show.
exodus wrote: View Post
Agreed.
She was as underdeveloped and pushed into the background just as much as Chakotay, Kim, Neelix & Tuvok.
Now you're twisting my words again. Please don't do that.
What I was stating was that Kes was no more underdeveloped than any of the Voyager charaters, including Janeway, seven and The Doctor. They all had flaws

Lynx wrote: View Post

As I see it, they should have omitted or got rid of the silly short lifespan and instead focus on her personality which was the most interesting with the character. She could have had some limited powers, just like these she showed in "Persistence Of Vision" and at the end of "Cold Fire".

According to the video, dumping Kes was a loss for the writers as well. It's possible. The actions of the writers when it comes to Kes is confusing, to say the least. They could come up with decent kes stories up to the last minute of her time on the show, then all of a sudden they lost those abilities. That's one of the reasons I don't believe their statements of "having difficulties to write for the character". It's more like they've been ordered to come up with such a statement.

OK, Kes could have been written better. But she's not the only character suffering from erratic writing, in fact all of them did.

So Kes wasn't the only character suffering from erratic writing. The whole show did. Still, the show has a certain charm and I do find the characters great.
exodus wrote: View Post
This is all easy to say and accuse in retrospect.
When you're writing a series as it's in production things are different. It's proven fact people don't see mistakes or missteps until after they're done. Things that sound good on paper can can be a train wreck upon execution.
I think anybody that watched X-Files, HEROES & LOST knows this to be true.
Besides, if they were going to lie about it the majority of people don't lie by putting the blame back on themselves.
They showed they had trouble writing for Chakotay, Kim, Neelix add a few others but fact they couldn't write better for Kes is suspicious?
What made her so special that hey suddenly could shake off writers block just for her and not anybody else?
They never stated that they had any problems writing for Chakotay, Kim, Neelix and a few others. They only stated that they suddenly got all the problems to write for Kes when season 4 started. Now that is suspicious!

As for the writers, we never heard or saw what Piller, Biller, Klink and some others really thought. It was all Braga and Jeri Taylor's fairy tales which kept changing all the time. Mind you that Taylor had no problems coming up with good Kes stories until that magic moment between season 3 and 4 when she suddenly lost those abilities (except for her book "Pathways" when she suddenly become able to write about Kes again).

exodus wrote: View Post
I also don't agree about getting rid of her life span because even without powers, it's what made her alien. By focusing on her life span it would have enhanced her personality because it would continue to bring up the issue of mortality. What would you do or how would you live your life if you knew you only had 9 years? Would you still spend you time with the EMH, who's has less life experience than you or would you spend more time around Tuvok and Janeway who have seen and done more than you could imagine? Having never even seen the sun until recently, wouldn't star charting hold more appeal than being a nurse? Couldn't she have been a nurse on Ocampa?
The lifespan was only silly. It would have been obvious for anyone to realize that species with such a short lifespan could only develop into primates.

I can agree that making her the ship's nurse wasn't the best move. She should have been a counselor, like Troi. As for star charts, it could have been a good idea if it had been used properly but the risk would have been that she had been more pushed into the background. Making her a nurse at least gave us some great interaction with The Doctor

exodus wrote: View Post
So yes, I do believe they didn't know how to write for Kes because they began to limit her desire. Kes that dared to questioned her peoples perception of God(the Caretaker) didn't exist anymore. The girl that took charge of her life in "Caretaker" was crying "I don't know what to do, I'm so confused" by "Tuvix." She left her own people/family and home behind without question but in by the end of "Darkling" she decides leaving those she loves isn't the best course of action. WTF!?!
Most of the Kes who dared to question The Caretaker did exist all the way. It was just that her life was different on Voyager. She enjoyed her life there so there was no reason for her to question things. As for the scenario in "Tuvix", of course she was confused. Anyone would have been that. If they had written Kes different in that scenario, I'm sure that someone would have slagged her off for not showing those emotions in that scene.

And why should she leave in "Darkling"? Of course she realized that she had a better chance to see, explore and finally arrive to Earth with the Voyager crew than to travel limited areas in Zahir's small ship. Besides that, she had her new family and a new, happy life on Voyger so why should she leave?
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Old December 28 2012, 12:22 PM   #208
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
I can agree that making her the ship's nurse wasn't the best move. She should have been a counselor, like Troi.
Because we all want to talk to 3 year old Counselors who have lived all their life underground or on a tin can in space.

That would have been AWFUL. Worse than Troi.

LOL I would rather be counseled by 7 of 9.. "your crap is irrelevant" and "you will adapt" are pretty useful approaches to life.
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Old December 28 2012, 12:52 PM   #209
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

^

Kes seemed to have a general understanding how people ticked even if she didn't have much life experience. I'm not saying she'd be a good counselor, but she'd be better than Troi who didn't have anything to go with beyond her empathic abilities.
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Old December 28 2012, 01:01 PM   #210
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

She seemed to have an understanding but I wouldn't trust her to advise someone out of a box.
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