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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 16 2012, 09:46 AM   #16
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
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At this point, Janeway knows next to nothing about the Borg. Not unlike Picard, who had much more on-hand experience with them. Sure, by the end of the series it was the other way around, but at the time of Scorpion... no. Picard would know better then to trust the Borg, and would never even consider an alliance. He would find other ways to get to the core of the problem, perhaps even open up a dialogue with 8472.

I wonder if Janeway, knowing what she learned of the Borg by the end of the series, would be so open to the idea of an alliance with the Borg.
How do you open up a dialogue with a race whose goal is to destroy everything in your galaxy. The only way that one was established was because Voyager and the Borg discovered how to defeat the bioships of Species 8472. So 8472 had a reason to be pissed. Sure, they overreacted a bit, but still.
Did Janeway even try to establish contact with 8472? I think she only reasoned that way because Kes told her that 8472 were having so many nasty thoughts. I don't remember any attempts of 'opening hailing frequencies'.

Picard has always been the better diplomat between those two. He would try to find another way around this situation then allying himself with the Borg.

Picard is not stupid, and he may have been hurt nearly beyond repair, but he knew how to compartmentalize his feelings.
1. Species 8472 is out to destroy all life in the galaxy.
2. Find a way to stop them.
3. Our idea will only work with Borg help.
4. Ally with the Borg.
5. Deal with Species 8472.
6. Cut and run from the Borg.

It was later found that 8472 only wanted to destroy everything here AFTER the Borg violated their space. The Borg were the first to act in that little war. Sure, 8472 overreacted a bit with their 'destroy everything' attitude, but the Borg instigated it all.

As far as I can remember, Janeway never even tried to establish contact with 8472. Kes told her that she picked up all these nasty thoughts, and Janeway acted on that. When they realized the Borg were the once that started it all, it was already to late.

Picard has always been the better diplomat, and would not choose a side so easily, not even if the Borg were involved. He would find out what compelled the other side aswell.
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Old December 16 2012, 12:33 PM   #17
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

And I bet he would find out the name Undine, used by Species 8472 to refer to themselves. Apparently Janeway STILL didn't know that after the time they spent with them in "Starfleet Academy"...
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Old December 16 2012, 02:21 PM   #18
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
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The "purge the galaxy" bit was implied later in Voyager to be just a shock-tactic: make yourself sound much more ruthless than you actually are to scare away potential opponents.

At least that's how I rationalise the post-Scorpion retconning of the Undine.
Scorpion Part I
After escaping the first bioship. Kes says what she heard the pilot say:
Kes:...the weak will perish.

When Voyager finds the singularity Species 8479 are using to enter this Universe:
Kes: Yes, I can hear them. They come from a place where they are all alone. Nothing else lives there.....I feel malevolence, a cold hatred, the weak will perish. It's an invasion. They intend on destroying everything.

So it was established in Scorpion Part I that Species 8472 was out to destroy everything, not just the Borg.

So the Borg would have been the lesser of 2 evils. The Borg had already destroyed hope of diplomacy by invading their space. Picard would have had no choice.
I know, that's exactly what I was adressing: as shown later in VOY, the Undine don't really want to annihilate all life in non-fluidic Space, they're just trying to (and succeeding) scare the opponent shitless.

And Picard wouldn't act on premonitions/visions of his empath/telepath alone.
He'd take it into consideration, but wouldn't base his whole policy towards a new species on a 3-second waking dream of Troi's.

What seems to be the deciding factor for Janeway is the attack on Kim; which is a purely emotional response, not rational given how quickly it happened, where it happened and all they ignored about the Undine.
Kes' vision establishes that they're alone in fluidic space, so the only humanoids they ever saw by that point were Borg, that Undine finds a bunch of humanoids on a Borg vessel and lashes out, in pretty poor lighting conditions nonetheless.
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Old December 16 2012, 03:26 PM   #19
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

8472 defended themselves from the Borg when attacked and had the audacity to counter attack. Their first encounter with Voyager, they attempted to tractor one of their ships, beam it away, then boarded it. Yeah, I'd consider all that hostile too and they to be in collusion with the Borg. Especially since they were actively protecting Voyager the second time they encountered them.

8472 was later shown to be quite reasonable when they're not being invaded. The whole "destroy the galaxy" thing is just Kes's intuition, which could be inaccurate. "The weak shall perish" could just be a battle cry for example, certainly I'm sure some of our generals said we should bomb Germany off the face of the Earth or purge all the Nazi's during WW2, but we didn't quite do it.

Picard would have actually tried TALKING to them before just randomly deciding they're a threat because the Borg might have a meal ticket across their space in all this. To say nothing of Picard would stop and consider two things, other species the Borg will attack after this war(like the guy in Hope and Fear's race) and the opportunity to bring the Collective to it's knees in negotiating with the 8472.
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Old December 16 2012, 06:53 PM   #20
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Picard would have gotten a treaty with 8472.

buh bye borg
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Old December 17 2012, 08:35 AM   #21
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Scorpion Part II
Admittedly after Voyager's second incursion into Fluidic Space:
Bridge:
Kes: I can hear them they want to talk through me. They say we've contaminated their realm.

Janeway: Tell them we had no choice. We were only trying to defend ourselves.

Kes: They say our galaxy is impure. It's proximity is a threat to their...genetic integrity.

Janeway: Tell them we have a weapon. A devastating weapon that can destroy them at the cellular level. If they don't stop their attacks on the Delta Quadrant, we'll be forced to use it.

Kes: They said, your galaxy will be purged.
The word "we've" would seem to be the key. Does "we've" mean the Borg, or does it mean Voyager and the Borg.

The next important part is that our "galaxy is a threat to their genetic integrity." That would strongly support the idea that all the life forms of the galaxy are a threat and referrs back to out galaxy needing to be purged.

So purging of the galaxy was their intent very early on because of threat to the genetic integrity and its proximity to theirs.

You cannot negotiate with anyone who believes that, until you prove you're powerful enough to defeat them or hold them at bay.

Voyager had the know how, the Borg had the capabilities.

Picard would not have liked it, maybe even consider it a last option. But allying with the Borg was the right thing. Unless, as was said, Species 8472 was completely rewritten.

If Species 8472 thought the galaxy was threat from the moment the Borg entered then Picard could not have negotiated a single thing with them.
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Old December 18 2012, 05:11 AM   #22
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Picard would never have cooperated with the Borg, even to destroy Species 8472. He might have successfully brokered an alliance with 8472, convinced them that the rest of the organics are not responsible for the Borg's attack on them.

But, if he had the opportunity to rescue any borg from the collective he would have taken it.
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Old December 18 2012, 07:34 AM   #23
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

The question still remains how do you negotiate with a species that is vastly more powerful than you and thinks you are a threat to its genetic integrity? At least the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians will show respect to those who are on their level technologically and are willing to fight. Species 8472 saw the galaxy as a threat because we were a threat to their very core, their belief that they are genetically superior.
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Old December 21 2012, 06:57 PM   #24
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

They said the "genetic integrity" line AFTER Voyager had invaded their realm. Given we didn't see much of their culture, that could easily be the equivalent of, "you have violated the sacred soil of my homeland." It doesn't mean an invader's foot is harming the physical soil, but an expression that the defender is going to fight for their home. I'd say they have every right to be POed about Voyager's involvement against them from day one. For all they knew the whole galaxy was against them, certainly Voyager was or appeared to be cooperating with the Borg and hostile towards them in every encounter. The only thing 8472 is guilty of, is having the audacity to hit back when attacked.
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Old December 21 2012, 09:05 PM   #25
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Star Grinch wrote: View Post
They said the "genetic integrity" line AFTER Voyager had invaded their realm. Given we didn't see much of their culture, that could easily be the equivalent of, "you have violated the sacred soil of my homeland." It doesn't mean an invader's foot is harming the physical soil, but an expression that the defender is going to fight for their home. I'd say they have every right to be POed about Voyager's involvement against them from day one. For all they knew the whole galaxy was against them, certainly Voyager was or appeared to be cooperating with the Borg and hostile towards them in every encounter. The only thing 8472 is guilty of, is having the audacity to hit back when attacked.
A retaliatory strike would be a defensible position one that Janeway and Picard would have understood. But they took it a step further, and made no attempt to distinguish friend from foe. Or even tell the Borg to stay away or Voyager to not get involved.
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Old December 22 2012, 02:48 AM   #26
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Star Grinch wrote: View Post
They said the "genetic integrity" line AFTER Voyager had invaded their realm. Given we didn't see much of their culture, that could easily be the equivalent of, "you have violated the sacred soil of my homeland." It doesn't mean an invader's foot is harming the physical soil, but an expression that the defender is going to fight for their home. I'd say they have every right to be POed about Voyager's involvement against them from day one. For all they knew the whole galaxy was against them, certainly Voyager was or appeared to be cooperating with the Borg and hostile towards them in every encounter. The only thing 8472 is guilty of, is having the audacity to hit back when attacked.
A retaliatory strike would be a defensible position one that Janeway and Picard would have understood. But they took it a step further, and made no attempt to distinguish friend from foe. Or even tell the Borg to stay away or Voyager to not get involved.
Why should they have? They had no way of knowing being they came from a universe where one power was in control. Certainly when Voyager tries tractoring that Bioship, then beaming it up, then boarding it all as if they were entitled to do so, then were seen next being protected by the Borg, they had every right to assume Voyager was in league with their enemies... they were.
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Old December 22 2012, 04:50 AM   #27
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Vanyel wrote: View Post
A retaliatory strike would be a defensible position one that Janeway and Picard would have understood. But they took it a step further, and made no attempt to distinguish friend from foe. Or even tell the Borg to stay away or Voyager to not get involved.
It seems you're thinking based on the foreknowledge of how the events unfold.
A few points:
1. Undine Behaviour:
- The Undine aren't humanoids.
- The first humanoid race they encounter is the Borg.
- They are the only sentient species in (their part of) fluidic space; so they haven't even encountered any other species prior to the Borg invasion.
- Voyager's actions at that point could be easily interpreted as hostile.
- The Undine that wounds Harry Kim does so in a split second in a dark environment and surrounded by other humanoids; the virus is seemingly part of the Undine's biology, not a deliberate malicious act.

2. Picard's modus operandi:
- Picard wouldn't let his emotion (anger over the Kim incident) clould his judgment of a whole species; especially not with the potential misunderstandings outlined in 1.
- Picard doesn't hold other powers to the standards of the Federation; he's always willing to extend a hand to a former enemy or a less utopian power, to make a leap of faith: we're not saying the Undine are nice guys here, we're just saying that, by the time Janeway decides to ally with the Borg, she has precious little to judge the Undine by.

3. Even if one dismisses potential misunderstandings, the Undines' crime of "not making an effort to distinguish friend from foe" pales in comparison to the Borg's cime of "assimilating or destroying all in their path"; something evidenced with more than a single telepath's vague recollections.
So, even then, they still look like the lesser evil.

The only way the Undine appear to be the greater evil is if:
- You take their desire to "purge the galaxy of genetic impurity" to be genuine (which the series denies later on).
- You judge the allegories they represent rather than their actions: one could see the Undine as nazis (purging impure genes...) and the Borg as the USSR/Maoist China (forced assimilation into a system that enforces equality through stripping individuality); at which point most western audiences would judge the latter a lesser evil.

In fact, this thread mostly outlines that the writers didn't really question the realism (in terms of character behaviour: Janeway's decision is just insane) of their cool premise and ran with it from exposition till happy end.
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Old December 27 2012, 03:44 PM   #28
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

The series would only last one episode because Picard and the Enterprise with it's heavy fire power would destroy the Kazon and find a way to use the Caretaker vessel to take the E back to the Alpha Quadrant.

But in concept the only way Picard ever allys himself with the Borg is if he has some level of greater strength than Janeway had to somehow turn on the Borg. Or if Species 8472... started killing off Enterprise crew members. But Picard would have likely tried to go around Borg space and avoided direct confrontation of the Borg at all costs. Even with the ship built to destroy Borg vessels like the E was you don't take on a ton of them at once.
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Old January 19 2013, 10:07 PM   #29
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Re: WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
picard went to the edge of the universe and returned within a few hours.

delta quadrant would have been no sweat
What episode did Picard go to the edge of the universe? The crew went to a different galaxy, but they needed the help of the Traveler to get back.
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