RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,311
Posts: 5,352,226
Members: 24,619
Currently online: 660
Newest member: DaxFan74205

TrekToday headlines

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 25 2012, 09:26 PM   #16
Mr_Homn
Captain
 
Mr_Homn's Avatar
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
It looks like the Genesis planet had, you know, weather.

That is MADNESS!!!!!
__________________
"Thank you.. for the drinks."
Mr_Homn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2012, 08:46 AM   #17
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Mr Silver wrote: View Post
...Something new ends up bugging me!

To be fair, this time, it wasn't something that I had really noticed before. One of the TV channels was showing TWOK (the regular version, not the DE unfortunately!) the other night, and as per usual, I ended up watching it (I'm quite confident I can recite every line in the movie).

It wasn't until the end of the movie that my "that's not right!" senses kicked in. Observe:



This is Spock's casket at the end of the movie, untarnished and perfectly intact on the surface of the Genesis planet. This works in favour of David's theory in TSFS that the tube soft landed when the gravitational fields were in flux. But! Then:



In TSFS, we see the casket, showing the effects of the elements OR burn damage from it being shot from Enterprise and/or entering the atmosphere of Genesis. As you can also see from this photo, David is about to open the casket, which comes across as being as simple as lifting the lid open. This raises the question as to how Spock's body managed to remain inside the casket during the transit. I mean, perhaps it didn't, he was found a distance away from the casket after all, but surely the Enterprise crew would have ensured that the casket was sealed shut? After all, it wasn't exactly a foregone conclusion that Spock would be resurrected and need to escape the coffin. You also have to consider his condition, specifically the fact that he'd still be emitting dangerous levels of ionised radiation for several hours at least, following his death. This would make the task of airtight sealing the casket, one of the utmost importance.

Thoughts?
What you see in the second pic is an early form of the microbes that we later see much larger.

And there's a little catch thing that David released when he opened it, much like opening a car door.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2012, 06:56 PM   #18
Mr Silver
Rear Admiral
 
Location: UK
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

^ But there was no pressure release nor did David show signs of any resistance when opening it. This suggests one of two things, either Spock had an in-built release switch (which would be stupid, since he was dead) which broke the airtight seal, or the Casket wasn't sealed at all.

If it wasn't air-sealed, then it's quite frankly impossible that Spock's corpse would have managed to make the trip to Genesis (and creating a massive plot hole in the process), given the effects of the vacuum of space on organic matter (the force would surely pull Spock's corpse from inside the coffin, if not crush the casket into a ball!), not to mention what happens with an atmospheric entry. The casket would have been made out of duranium, presumably, but even that would be useless unless it was properly sealed - as all space ships are.
Mr Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2012, 07:13 PM   #19
Trekky0623
Ensign
 
Location: Boulder, CO
Send a message via AIM to Trekky0623
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

The latch could've been damaged or forced open when it hit the ground. One hinge breaks or the latch is jostled open, and it be easy for Spock to push his way out. What does David mean exactly when he says "soft landed" anyway? How soft are we talking about? Could it have landed pretty hard and any damage to Spock been repaired by the Genesis device?
Trekky0623 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2012, 08:38 PM   #20
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Mr Silver wrote: View Post
either Spock had an in-built release switch (which would be stupid, since he was dead) which broke the airtight seal,
Or the inner/outer latch is standard equipment with the casing. Why would the Enterprise crew deliberately remove or disable the inner portion of the latch mechanism, just because the casing was going to be used as a burial coffin?
T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 26 2012, 09:04 PM   #21
Mr Silver
Rear Admiral
 
Location: UK
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Mr Silver wrote: View Post
either Spock had an in-built release switch (which would be stupid, since he was dead) which broke the airtight seal,
Or the inner/outer latch is standard equipment with the casing. Why would the Enterprise crew deliberately remove or disable the inner portion of the latch mechanism, just because the casing was going to be used as a burial coffin?
But why would it have an inner latch in the first place? It's unnecessary, given that only the inanimate equipment and raw materials will be inside the casing.

As for why they would remove the latch mechanism, you answered your own question - namely that it was going to be used as a burial coffin. Burial coffins are usually sealed shut with nails, etc before they are buried underground. In the case of Spock, it was important to protect the crew from the radioactive fallout that his corpse would be emitting. I'm not sure anyone would have turned up for the funeral service if there was a chance they'd get sick with radiation poisoning! With that in mind, It's quite possible that they welded it shut (using a laser torch of phaser), and that the metallic inner is made out of lead.

Regardless of what the movie novelization for TWOK/TSFS suggests, or the confusion of David and Saavik on the Grissom, TWOK movie clearly stresses that the intention was to deliver Spock's body to the Genesis planet - intact presumably.
Mr Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 01:04 AM   #22
Borjis
Commodore
 
Borjis's Avatar
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

I'm just glad it didn't slam into that tree, flinging spock out from the container.
Borjis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 01:07 AM   #23
The Mirrorball Man
Vice Admiral
 
The Mirrorball Man's Avatar
 
Location: Switzerland
View The Mirrorball Man's Twitter Profile
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Mr Silver wrote: View Post
either Spock had an in-built release switch (which would be stupid, since he was dead) which broke the airtight seal,
Or the inner/outer latch is standard equipment with the casing. Why would the Enterprise crew deliberately remove or disable the inner portion of the latch mechanism, just because the casing was going to be used as a burial coffin?
It could be carried by an African swallow!
__________________
Check out my deviantArt gallery!
The Mirrorball Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 02:47 AM   #24
Mr Silver
Rear Admiral
 
Location: UK
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
It could be carried by an African swallow!
Don't start that!

Honestly, some things just don't seem right in the movies. For instance, the area where Spock's casket landed is curiously landlocked, suggesting that the Enterprise crew wanted his casket to land there. (depending on what theory you go with)

Any kind of release system, would be like installing an emergency burial bell - in case the occupant isn't actually dead. Although Spock's case is unique, in that his katra wasn't dead, his body had ceased to be and was nothing more than an irradiated corpse that would require isolation.
Mr Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 03:21 AM   #25
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Mr Silver wrote: View Post
Burial coffins are usually sealed shut with nails
Coffins cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars. No one is going to be securing them with "nails." The latches and locks usually are brass.

In the case of Spock, it was important to protect the crew from the radioactive fallout that his corpse would be emitting.
Ionizing radiation can cause damage to living tissues, however it can not cause those tissues to become radioactive themselves. Any metal pieces on Spock's uniform could have been irradiated and likely would gave been secured in a appropriate container, when he was placed in a fresh uniform prior to burial.

It's quite possible that they welded it shut
David casually opened it with one hand on the planets surface.

But why would it have an inner latch in the first place? It's unnecessary, given that only the inanimate equipment and raw materials will be inside the casing.
Raw materials?

We did see (eighty years later) the casings being used to transport personnel, there one reason right there. The casing can be used for sensor probes, the ability to expose the sensors by popping the lid could be useful. Same for collecting samples. So there is a need for a interior release.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 03:29 AM   #26
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Mr Silver wrote: View Post
^ But there was no pressure release nor did David show signs of any resistance when opening it. This suggests one of two things, either Spock had an in-built release switch (which would be stupid, since he was dead) which broke the airtight seal, or the Casket wasn't sealed at all.
First of all, we don't know exactly what kind of mechanism it had. Perhaps the casket is self-opening to a degree, like how the door of your microwave opens a little when you press the button.

And given that we've seen Key'lehr travelling in a similar way (albeit with a life support system), I'd say it's possible that there is indeed a release catch inside the thing, if only for safety's sake.

If it wasn't air-sealed, then it's quite frankly impossible that Spock's corpse would have managed to make the trip to Genesis (and creating a massive plot hole in the process), given the effects of the vacuum of space on organic matter (the force would surely pull Spock's corpse from inside the coffin, if not crush the casket into a ball!), not to mention what happens with an atmospheric entry. The casket would have been made out of duranium, presumably, but even that would be useless unless it was properly sealed - as all space ships are.
Why would the casket crush if it wasn't air sealed? If it wasn't air tight, then the air inside could be sucked out into space and then the pressure would be the same and the casket wouldn't crush. And Spock certainly wouldn't have been pulled out through a little hole a la alien newborn in Alien Resurrection.

And David clarified that the gravitational fields were in flux and it could have soft landed. And even if the landing did damage Spock's body, the Genesis effect would have restored him.
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 03:42 AM   #27
Mr Silver
Rear Admiral
 
Location: UK
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Tiberius wrote: View Post
Why would the casket crush if it wasn't air sealed? If it wasn't air tight, then the air inside could be sucked out into space and then the pressure would be the same and the casket wouldn't crush. And Spock certainly wouldn't have been pulled out through a little hole a la alien newborn in Alien Resurrection.

And David clarified that the gravitational fields were in flux and it could have soft landed. And even if the landing did damage Spock's body, the Genesis effect would have restored him.
Force of the air being expelled, combined with an "easy-open" lid, wouldn't play out well, especially if pressure is the trigger to open the latch. Also, there would still be gases within Spock's body, which would be expelled as well.

In my head, I'm correlating all sorts of disastrous outcomes (which didn't happen in the movie) as a result of an improperly sealed casket being fired at extreme speed, out into the vacuum of space, and then into the atmosphere of a planet. Yet, the last shot of TWOK is Spock's un-tarnished and perfectly lying casket. It's not a stretch to say that the torpedo was made out of materials that are resistant to the effects of atmospheric entry, but then why would it "weather", and after such a short period of time too? (It can't have been more than a week or two between TWOK and TSFS)
Mr Silver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 05:02 AM   #28
Tiberius
Commodore
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Okay then, let's say the casket was pressurized. That removes anything that could damage Spock's body. But why would this result in the casket being crushed or even damaged in any way?
Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 09:10 PM   #29
Grant
Fleet Captain
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

It's funny the OP mentions this 'continuity error' when there a more blatant error in TSFS..

When David first opens the lid the shot reveals the interior to be dirty, but then a few seconds later another shot shows the interior to be be perfectly clean. That one can't be explained and is much more annoying.

It might be vice versa--first clean, then dirty, but it's a terrible error.

Last edited by Grant; December 27 2012 at 09:38 PM.
Grant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 27 2012, 09:45 PM   #30
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: In the 23rd Century...
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Everytime I watch TWOK/TSFS...

Grant wrote: View Post
It's funny the OP mentions this 'continuity error' when there a more blatant error in TSFS..

When David first opens the lid the shot reveals the interior to be dirty, but then a few seconds later another shot shows the interior to be be perfectly clean. That one can't be explained and is much more annoying.

It might be vice versa--first clean, then dirty, but it's a terrible error.
I just love that we're down to arguing over the mechanisms involved in opening a futuristic coffin.

Might be time to find a new hobby...
__________________
"I had no idea you were so... formidable. " - Anan 7 to James T. Kirk, A Taste of Armageddon
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:57 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.