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Old December 25 2012, 09:49 PM   #181
exodus
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Tom was a bad boy because he joined the Maquis.

Which would be exceptional on any other ship other than Voyager which was 25 percent Maquis who had been around longer than a week before they got pinched in a raid, then rolled over on the cause.

Sounds like a punk to me.
Yes, exactly.
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Old December 25 2012, 10:01 PM   #182
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
Oh no, it was better with Kes.
Okay, but would the show have been better if they ditched Harry for 7 like they originally intended? It seems like Harry is one of those characters who went no where and almost never got any sort of real character development. He only had one episode dedicated to him in season 1 and it wasn't very good and he never really improved with time.
I agree but I do think Harry/Tom had more ongoing potential than Kes/EMH. Tom and Harry were great opposites that brought a certain balance to each character. I think by s5, the EMH wasn't going to need Kes' guidance anymore because he was already on his way to being fully independent by the end of s3. I don't really see where they had developed a strong enough bond with Kes' interaction with others as they did Harry. Harry had more interaction and stronger relationships with Tuvok, B'Elanna & Janeway than Kes ever did. Plus I don't see any other character on Voyager being as believably affected by survivor guilt as Harry was in "Timeless".
Maybe, but they hardly ever explored any of this with Harry and he ended up being Mr. generic guy. Harry Kim just came off as a miserable loser or some emotionally stunted sap to really gain the audience's respect and most of the rest of the time he was just a generic guy. Harry Kim should have had a bad ass moment where he saved the ship, got a promotion and became more confident, not doing that made the character rather pointless.
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Old December 25 2012, 10:44 PM   #183
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Okay if you want to equate Tom's Bad Boyness with the other Maquis on board he was Bad. A Very Naughty Boy. Just like those other very naughty Maquis who showed what underground rebels they were by being lazy and not wanting to run laps. Such grit!
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Old December 25 2012, 11:44 PM   #184
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post

Okay, but would the show have been better if they ditched Harry for 7 like they originally intended? It seems like Harry is one of those characters who went no where and almost never got any sort of real character development. He only had one episode dedicated to him in season 1 and it wasn't very good and he never really improved with time.
I agree but I do think Harry/Tom had more ongoing potential than Kes/EMH. Tom and Harry were great opposites that brought a certain balance to each character. I think by s5, the EMH wasn't going to need Kes' guidance anymore because he was already on his way to being fully independent by the end of s3. I don't really see where they had developed a strong enough bond with Kes' interaction with others as they did Harry. Harry had more interaction and stronger relationships with Tuvok, B'Elanna & Janeway than Kes ever did. Plus I don't see any other character on Voyager being as believably affected by survivor guilt as Harry was in "Timeless".
Maybe, but they hardly ever explored any of this with Harry and he ended up being Mr. generic guy. Harry Kim just came off as a miserable loser or some emotionally stunted sap to really gain the audience's respect and most of the rest of the time he was just a generic guy. Harry Kim should have had a bad ass moment where he saved the ship, got a promotion and became more confident, not doing that made the character rather pointless.
I disagree.
I don't think doing any of that would have fixed a character written with no personality. Personality traits in characters are what make them stand out. We've seen Harry save the ship(Timeless), his friends(Time & Again, The Chute, Deadlock, etc.) and gain confidence(The Decease) but it didn't change the character because his personality remained the same. He never seemed to care. Too be the person you're looking for him to he'd have to be more aggressive, an over achiever. His action would have to matter to him, they didn't. IMO Harry didn't deserve a promotion because he never went above and beyond to earn it. You never saw him desire to want to do anything. That's why Harry was bland.
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Last edited by exodus; December 25 2012 at 11:59 PM.
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Old December 26 2012, 12:16 AM   #185
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
Okay if you want to equate Tom's Bad Boyness with the other Maquis on board he was Bad. A Very Naughty Boy. Just like those other very naughty Maquis who showed what underground rebels they were by being lazy and not wanting to run laps. Such grit!
That's not why Tom was a bad boy.
He was bad because he was a traitor.
There's no greater offence than selling out your own people/country. What made it worse was the was the son of a high ranking, well respected Admiral
When things got to tough for him in Starfleet he quit but he didn't just quit, he turned his back on the Federation by doing so. He joined the Maquis. After he joined the Maquis, he turned on them and sold them out to Starfleet.
He couldn't be trusted and wasn't welcomed by either side.
He was a traitor to his father and to his "country", he was also a traitor to the terrorist/freedom fighters he joined.
People who are traitors to the government/country normally don't get let out of prison to redeem themselves. They're usually are up for execution.
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Last edited by exodus; December 26 2012 at 12:30 AM.
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Old December 26 2012, 12:30 AM   #186
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

They replaced the only well developed character on the show with the subsequent only well developed character on the show.

I'd say the quality remained exactly the same.
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Old December 26 2012, 12:35 AM   #187
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

DalekJim wrote: View Post
They replaced the only well developed character on the show with the subsequent only well developed character on the show.

I'd say the quality remained exactly the same.
How was Kes well developed?
Even the writing staff themselves admitted they messed up on her development.
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Old December 26 2012, 12:47 AM   #188
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Alright, "well developed" was probably pushing it but by Voyager standards she was the best character on the ship.

Although I'd also class Neelix as being better developed than most of the cast so my word should be taken with a lorry of salt.
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Old December 26 2012, 12:50 AM   #189
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
That's not why Tom was a bad boy.
He was bad because he was a traitor.
There's no greater offence than selling out your own people/country. What made it worse was the was the son of a high ranking, well respected Admiral
When things got to tough for him in Starfleet he quit but he didn't just quit, he turned his back on the Federation by doing so. He joined the Maquis. After he joined the Maquis, he turned on them and sold them out to Starfleet.
He couldn't be trusted and wasn't welcomed by either side.
He was a traitor to his father and to his "country", he was also a traitor to the terrorist/freedom fighters he joined.
People who are traitors to the government/country normally don't get let out of prison to redeem themselves. They're usually are up for execution.
And yet he has such a baby face. Especially in last few seasons when he got a bit fat.
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Old December 26 2012, 02:56 AM   #190
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
Sisko would have punched him in his mouth every other show.
Honestly, I think every other show Tom would have tried to break someone out of the brig then Sisko would have pretended to try to stop him but really turned the other way until the person escaped then yelled at him.

I'm glad Harry didn't have some sort of zany personality trait. Harry was the show's straight man, and crazy characters don't work as well without a normal person standing next to them.
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Old December 26 2012, 03:18 AM   #191
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Sisko would have punched him in his mouth every other show.
Honestly, I think every other show Tom would have tried to break someone out of the brig then Sisko would have pretended to try to stop him but really turned the other way until the person escaped then yelled at him.
No way.
Sisko gave several speeches on what type of person it takes to wear a Starfleet uniform, the honor it takes and what it means to be a Starfleet Officer. Tom didn't have those traits. It would have been a serious insult to Sisko having a traitor like Tom on his team and wearing a Starfleet uniform. We saw how Sisko felt about Eddington being a traitor. He wouldn't have looked the other way at Tom's infractions, he would have been looking for ANY excuse to get him off his station.
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Old December 26 2012, 04:26 AM   #192
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Didn't Sisko marry a Maquis traitor and put a baby inside her?
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Old December 26 2012, 06:54 AM   #193
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Didn't Sisko marry a Maquis traitor and put a baby inside her?
Lets not forget his First Officer was a former Bajoran terrorist who supported any and all violence directed toward the Cardassians. Sisko and Janeway kept strange company haha
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Old December 26 2012, 07:41 AM   #194
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Naaah... Sisko isn't much younger than O'Brien, he probably fought in some of the Federation/Cardassian scuffles of the late 2350s too.
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Old December 26 2012, 09:06 AM   #195
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Sisko fell into the traitor pit himself when he chose the visions of B'hala over his Starfleet orders, choosing to warn (or order, depending on how religious you were) Bajor to not pursue Federation membership though getting them up to scratch to become members was the the mandate he was given when he took his post. An Admiral even threatens to remove his Starfleet commission because of this.
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