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Old December 25 2012, 07:24 PM   #31
T'Girl
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
England remains under the direct jurisdiction of the UK government (which means it effectively doubles as national government as well as "regional" government for England).
I never fully realized this, interesting. I guess I assumed that the UK and England did have separate governments for administrative purposes.

In America we (wisely) placed our federal capital outside of any of our states, is England ever treated as the "favored child" within the UK?

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Old December 25 2012, 07:31 PM   #32
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
In America we (wisely) placed our federal capital outside of any of our states
Unfortunately, DC now has residents, which it was never intended to have. So for those who live there, "taxation without representation" is literally true.

is England ever treated as the "favored child" within the UK?
I'm sure Scotland and Wales sometimes claim it does (which would explain the attempts at Scottish independence) but I doubt it's actually true.
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Old December 25 2012, 07:38 PM   #33
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
mswood wrote: View Post
First just because it once existed doesn't mean it still does.
Ever hear of Occam's Razor?

Like I keep saying: It literally does not make any sense for there to be no Earth government. If there was not one, then Earth citizens would have no representation in the Federation - therefore, they would have no rights. That sound right to you?

And there is nothing so magical about the Federation that would cause member worlds' governments to vanish when they join. There's no reason they would do that. It's inconceivable that the Federation would make such a demand. No world would ever want to join if it meant they would lose their own local government! Then the Federation really would be no better than the Borg.

But I don't think after ENT we have any evidence of a local Earth Government that has say on External Security issues that face earth.
We don't have any evidence of a lack of one, either.

And, non-canon though it may be, the novels have fully developed the structure of United Earth government, and they are of course the only way we are ever going to see any more stories taking place in the prime (non-Abrams) timeline, so their word is as good as canon.
Actually it wouldn't take an Earth Government, after Federation Membership was granted to have Earth having representation in the Federation Governing body.

In fact Earth has been shown to have representatives on the Federation Council, I assume this is the council we have seen in a few movies/episodes.

We have no idea how those council members are chosen. It could be simply democratic vote.

But to say Earth has to have its own governing body to have representation in the Federation is simply not accurate.
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Old December 25 2012, 07:49 PM   #34
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

mswood wrote: View Post
But to say Earth has to have its own governing body to have representation in the Federation is simply not accurate.

It's most likely.
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Old December 25 2012, 07:55 PM   #35
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Mr. Laserbeam

Just to clarify when I wrote just because it existed (earth Government and the form it took) when Federation Membership was granted, doesn't mean that same Government still exists. I have already stated several times in posts today that I think some form of local Earth government must be there, but we have no idea of its scope and size and responsibility. It could be a vast government or it could have extremely limited powers and responsibility. We don't know.

We know that at no time after ENT has Earth Government been shown to take care of Earth security. At least Earth security from external forces. Be it V'Ger, the Probe, or alien infiltration. In all those cases its either been shown to be starfleet, or Starfleet/ Federation President making those calls.
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Old December 25 2012, 07:57 PM   #36
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

^ That's only because of dramatic necessity. Remember, there WERE supposed to be mentions of Earth's government in Homefront/Paradise Lost. But there wasn't enough time. They had the intention of doing so, but couldn't.
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Old December 25 2012, 08:46 PM   #37
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Finngle Bells wrote: View Post
Star Grinch wrote: View Post
I always thought it was dumb for them to assume the audience is dumb.
I've seen a lot of people get confused with plots of sci-fi show episodes, even when they seem obvious to those who follow the show religously. I knew someone who didn't realize time travel was involved in TNG's All Good Things. He spent the whole time watching All Good Things.. thinking "WTF?".

And this guy was quite a bright guy who would go on to become a school administrator.


In other words, thinking it would be confuse viewers doesn't mean the producers think they are dumb....
Well, All Good Things did flat out openly state he was traveling in time several times in the episode(to say nothing of the aging/changed clothes between time periods) so it's not like it was some super complicated continuity thing drawing elements in from all seven seasons. Seems like your someone just wasn't paying attention. Having an Earth government present is no more complicated than people comprehending the president and governor of a state responding to a crisis in said state.
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Old December 25 2012, 09:13 PM   #38
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

The philosophy of self improvement might have replaced government.

Why do the drones need anyone to tell them what to do when when they're all conditioned to do what they ought to do anyway to improve and perpetuate the species.

Vacancies are just filled organically, automated services just automate, and what with everything being free.... No taxes.
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Old December 25 2012, 09:25 PM   #39
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ That's only because of dramatic necessity. Remember, there WERE supposed to be mentions of Earth's government in Homefront/Paradise Lost. But there wasn't enough time. They had the intention of doing so, but couldn't.
But the question is what was the role. Remember two things on this side. Ron could say it was the attention to mention it. But does that refer to himself or the head writer. Would it have been something that was approved by the powers that be, or was it just something that was originally part of the teleplay or original script?

And again I don't know what that detail was. Was Earth Government the one in charge? Were they a supplement to Starfleet or the Federation.

Was it more like here sign on to this, because we are doing it with or without you. There are many different possibilities, that without real detail make it impossible to really gauge what size, shape, and powers local planetary governments have in relationship to the Federation.

We simply don't know.
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Old December 25 2012, 09:43 PM   #40
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
In America we (wisely) placed our federal capital outside of any of our states
Unfortunately, DC now has residents, which it was never intended to have. So for those who live there, "taxation without representation" is literally true.
Separating the residential areas from the Federal government areas, and simply retrocession'ing the residential areas back into Maryland would nicely solve that. While maintaining the Federal government outside of any state.

the novels ... so their word is as good as canon.
Only a tiny fraction of Trek fans even read the novels, and there is no reason to consider their content to be canon.

mswood wrote: View Post
In fact Earth has been shown to have representatives on the Federation Council
When was this?

Earth is a member and probably does have Federation representatives, but I can't remember any of them ever being shown.

We have no idea how those council members are chosen. It could be simply democratic vote.
Or United Earth's government might simply select them.

But to say Earth has to have its own governing body to have representation in the Federation is simply not accurate.
And how would the people of Earth have any say in the governance of Earth itself, if United Earth had no government?

mswood wrote: View Post
It could be a vast government or it could have extremely limited powers and responsibility. We don't know.
Subsequent to the naming of the United Federation of Planets during TOS, we hear of a "Earth Federation." Possibly a separate organization.

We know that at no time after ENT has Earth Government been shown to take care of Earth security.
Need to move that forward at least another century in time. TOS makes frequent mentions of Earth bases and Earth outposts.

And in TNG there were still colonies being created that were referred to as "Earth Colonies," not Human colonies, not Federation colonies.

or Starfleet/ Federation President making those calls.
I believe the vast majority of the time Starfleet gets it's orders from the council, not the president.

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Old December 26 2012, 01:52 AM   #41
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

For those interested, here's exactly what Ron Moore had to say on the matter, as posted here.

Subj: Answers
Date: 4/7/97 1:49:04 PM
From: RonDMoore

<<IN "Homefront" the President said he never sought this position. DOes this
mean the Federation president is Appointed? Why no election? And why does
the Federation President put Earth into a state of Emergency? Does earth not
have it's own Government like all the other members of the Federation?>>

We assume the Fed President was duly elected, but that he reluctantly was
induced to run for the position. As for the Earth Govt vs. Fed Govt issue,
this was something we wrestled with in the story break. We wanted to tell
the story of an attempted military coup of the Federation and that meant
dealing with the Fed president. However, that meant the troops "in the
streets" had to be on Earth and that Earth itself had to be under martial law
since the Fed is headquartered on Earth. We discussed having the Prez
"federalize" the Earth defense forces or supercede the authority of an
indigenous Earth Govt, but the story kept getting too complicated and we
didn't want to start mentioning all these other players and organizations
that we weren't going to see. So in the end, we skirted the issue of who
actually governs Earth. Personally, I think there is an Earth Govt that
operates like more powerful versions of States do in the US system, but this
is all VERY murky water. Gene was pretty smart back in the 60s when he
decided not to discuss the exact outcome of Earth's political/social/economic
future and we've come about as close to doing just that as I think we should.
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Old December 26 2012, 02:38 AM   #42
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

FWIW, the novels have explained that every Federation member selects its councillor however they want to. Betazed's is chosen by popular election; Andor's, by the majority party in their Parliament; Bajor, by the First Minister (with confirmation by the Chamber of Ministers); didn't say how Earth chose theirs, although I'd guess it's the same as Bajor's (the United Earth Prime Minister chooses, and the Parliament confirms).

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post

Only a tiny fraction of Trek fans even read the novels, and there is no reason to consider their content to be canon.
I really could give a damn about what is canon and what is not. No, actually I couldn't give a damn, no matter how hard I tried.
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Old December 26 2012, 03:08 AM   #43
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Star Trek tends to assume the audience is a good mix of smart and dumb, and it toes that line better than most other TV shows.
Eh, I don't know. Trek's idea of assuming the audience is smart is by having characters spew out confusing technical jargon in key scenes.
That's not what I meant. I mean, Star Trek has more success portraying ethical nuance. There are episodes like The Defector and Duet where the characters' emotional state is delegated to the viewer's cultural imagination. The Star Trek world is more vivid in our imaginations than it ever is on the page, and they rely on that imagination to express themes that are not explicitly present in the script. Star Trek uses simple, dumb stories to express complex ideas.

Homefront/Paradise Lost is another great example of that. Any other TV show, that episode ends with all the shapeshifters on Earth being captured.
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Old December 26 2012, 03:55 AM   #44
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

Star Grinch wrote: View Post
Finngle Bells wrote: View Post

I've seen a lot of people get confused with plots of sci-fi show episodes, even when they seem obvious to those who follow the show religously. I knew someone who didn't realize time travel was involved in TNG's All Good Things. He spent the whole time watching All Good Things.. thinking &quot;WTF?&quot;.

And this guy was quite a bright guy who would go on to become a school administrator.


In other words, thinking it would be confuse viewers doesn't mean the producers think they are dumb....
Well, All Good Things did flat out openly state he was traveling in time several times in the episode(to say nothing of the aging/changed clothes between time periods) so it's not like it was some super complicated continuity thing drawing elements in from all seven seasons. Seems like your someone just wasn't paying attention. Having an Earth government present is no more complicated than people comprehending the president and governor of a state responding to a crisis in said state.
Well yeah.

People are weird. I've seen people not realize the leaves were changing colors, while we were in a full-blown fall foliage peak with bright orange, yellow and red trees all over the place.

Yes, it would be like an episode or movie with a President working with a state governor. The West Wing has done that. I think Sci-Fi shows has a weird effect on some people, confusing them just because they know it's a sci-fi show.
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Old December 26 2012, 04:18 AM   #45
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Re: Where was Earth's Leader?

From Rapture.

WHATLEY: Not sorry enough to return my comm. signals. All three of them. That could get an officer in a lot of trouble. Look, Ben, I need to know that I can count on you. Now, Bajor's admission is only the beginning. Now comes the hard part. Federation council members have to be chosen, the Bajoran militia has to be absorbed into Starfleet. There are thousands of details that have to be overseen and you're our point man here. That means we need to depend on you more than ever.
They just chose people at random?

Or they chose the most qualified?

Or they chose the most influential who has greased the most palms?

Choose is a very vague word.

I'd say there's an 8 percent chance that in this context that "chose" means "duly and democratically elect".
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