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Old December 22 2012, 08:23 PM   #316
gturner
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Location: Kentucky
Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Festivus Toad wrote: View Post
Guns are the most used weapon in the US for murder. That's a fact. No pedantic, moronic moving of the goalposts, no redefining of the argument, no making shit up will change that.
And there's an interesting 1967 study that set out to determine if blacks in Chicago would switch more to knives if the city banned guns, and whether their homicide rate would go up or down. They figured it would probably go down, but weren't sure. The murder rate their remains extremely high despite the ban they enacted.

In Rome in the period from 1840 to 1860, when firearms were uncommon and certainly nothing like a modern semi-automatic, their homicide rate was three times higher than the current US, about as bad as Chicago is now, and 94 percent of it was with knives and blunt instruments. Overall the Italian murder rate was twice as high as the current US, and in places like Palermo it was almost ten times higher. And it wasn't guns, it was knives. It was said women wouldn't have a man who wasn't good with a knife. Culture and behavior matter.

In this case, a crazy white guy killed a bunch of white children, so you demand a law that will put 10,000 more black men behind bars. That's a typical white response.


Your television analogy is flawed because you're using what happens in one year to what happened in one day, and even that is wrong.
Since 2000, about 500 children have been killed by televisions and about 60 have died in school attacks. You just don't want to give up your TV, so you pretend that we're having a Sandy Hook every day.
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Old December 22 2012, 09:42 PM   #317
beamMe
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Festivus Toad wrote: View Post
I guess there's nothing that can be done for these hundred or so people either?

3 Shot And Killed In Mich... 18-Year-Old Shot Multiple Times, Dies... Man Kills Wife, Teen, Himself... Man Shoots, Kills Own Son... Cops Shoot Teen Dead...Man Gunned Down In Parking Lot... 5 Dead In Spate Of Shootings... 2 Murdered In Philly... 2 Kansas Cops Shot Dead... Shooter Killed... 4 Die In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Ga. Cop Dies From Gunshot... Argument Leads Teen To Shoot Friend... Man Shot To Death... Teen Dies After Being Tied Up, Shot... Man Shot Dead In Street... Drug Deal Leads To Shooting Death... Mother Of 2 Killed In Road Rage Shooting... Man Shoots, Kills Intruder... 1 Killed In Coney Island...Man Dies From Gunshot Wounds... Cops Investigate Gun Death... Shooting Victim's Body Found On Bike Trail... Man Charged With Shooting Own Brother Dead... Man Dies After Being Shot In Chest... Body Of Shooting Victim Found In Pickup... Teen Arrested For Robbery Shooting Death... Man Carrying 2-Year-Old Son Shot Dead... Man Fatally Shot Near Home... Parolee Dies In Shooting... 1 Killed In Buffalo Shooting... Man Shot Dead In Apartment Complex... Street Gun Battle Kills Grandma Bystander... Man, Woman Dead In Apparent Murder-Suicide... Woman Shot Dead By Intruder... 14-Year-Old Arrested Over Fatal Gun Attack... Man Found Shot Dead In Parking Lot... Woman Shot In Face By Ex-Boyfriend... 1 Woman, 3 Men Shot Dead... 2 Die In Attempted Robbery... Army Reservist Shot To Death In Alley... Man Shot To Death In Bodega... 2 Shot Dead In Burned House... Man Shot During Break-In... Man Fatally Shot... 20-Year-Old Gunned Down... Man Shoots Self During Police Pursuit... 1 Killed In Baltimore Shooting... Cops ID Shooting Victim... 60-Year-Old Man Shot Dead... Shot Man's Body Found In Vacant House.... Woman Shot And Killed Outside Her Home...Shooting Victim Was 'Trying To Turn Life Around'... Slain Shooting Victim Found In Street.... Driving Altercation Leads To Shooting, 1 Dies... 3-Year-Old Dies In Accidental Shooting... Man Turns Self In After Allegedly Shooting Wife...Man Shot Dead Outside Home... 3 Slain In Separate New Orleans Shootings...Cops Investigate Shooting Death... Man Shot Dead In Ohio... Teen Shot To Death... Man Dies After Being Shot Multiple Times... Man Charged Over Son's Shooting Death... Cops Find 2 Men Shot Dead... 1 Dies In Shooting... Man Charged Over Gun Killing... 1 Shot Dead In Confrontation... Man Charged With Murder Over Shooting... Motel-Owner Shot And Killed... Husband Shoots Estranged Wife Dead... Suspect Arrested Over Deputy's Shooting Death... Police Probe Fatal Shooting... Cops Kill 2 Suspects In 3 Shooting Deaths... Man Killed Fighting Back Against Robber... Man Killed In Home Invasion.... Nightclub Shooting Kills 1... Child Brain Dead After Drive By Shooting... Man Charged Over Shooting Of Ex-Wife... Body Found In Vacant House... Teen Fatally Shot...

These are the people who are dead thanks to a projectile fired at a high velocity since Sandy Hook.
Since!?

Dear god!

Sorry, if this offends anyone, but everyone who, in the shadow of all this death, can argue in favour of gun ownership and against stricter regulations is fucked up beyond all belief.
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Old December 22 2012, 09:52 PM   #318
Davros
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

NightmareB4Holmes wrote: View Post
chardman wrote: View Post
NightmareB4Holmes wrote: View Post
Anyone who seriously uses the term assault weapons is both a massive ignorant fool when it comes to firearms, and buying into a political buzzword created by racists...

Ya mean like those evil librul bastards that run run "Guns Digest", "Soldier of Fortune" magazine, and the advertising campaigns of the gun manufacturers themselves? Sorry fella, but "assault weapons" was an industry term long before anyone in the anti-gun lobby or the so-called liberal media adopted it.
Assault weapons was a political term created by Hitler.
What the fuck did politics have to do with it?
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Old December 22 2012, 09:54 PM   #319
beamMe
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
Since 2000, about 500 children have been killed by televisions and about 60 have died in school attacks. You just don't want to give up your TV, so you pretend that we're having a Sandy Hook every day.
Are referring to this http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-...ds-govt-warns/ ?

The numbers you give are wrong.
Your comparison is completely harebrained.
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Old December 22 2012, 09:55 PM   #320
beamMe
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Davros wrote: View Post
NightmareB4Holmes wrote: View Post
chardman wrote: View Post


Ya mean like those evil librul bastards that run run "Guns Digest", "Soldier of Fortune" magazine, and the advertising campaigns of the gun manufacturers themselves? Sorry fella, but "assault weapons" was an industry term long before anyone in the anti-gun lobby or the so-called liberal media adopted it.
Assault weapons was a political term created by Hitler.
What the fuck did politics have to do with it?
It's bullshit NightmareB4Holmes's made up.
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Old December 22 2012, 10:42 PM   #321
gturner
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

beamMe wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Since 2000, about 500 children have been killed by televisions and about 60 have died in school attacks. You just don't want to give up your TV, so you pretend that we're having a Sandy Hook every day.
Are referring to this http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-...ds-govt-warns/ ?

The numbers you give are wrong.
Your comparison is completely harebrained.
No, I hadn't seen that one. I was back estimating from an aggregated estimate, which was obviously 40 percent high, as your more accurate number is 349 children killed by televisions since 2000, only five times higher than the number of children killed in school attacks.

But obviously even one child killed by televisions is too many, and this television holocaust will not stop until we ban them and eliminate them from society entirely. But lots of people who care more about watching Star Trek reruns than dead children oppose these efforts.

And then we can work on banning dressers, cabinets, sofas, stoves, swimming pools, and most importantly, cars, none of which are protected by the Constitution, and all of which are pretty useless at stopping a crazed lunatic intent on murdering your family and stealing all your stuff. Even according to the Brady Center, that happens over 100,000 times a year, whereas other estimates put that number at several million. This keeps things like the US assault rate at about a sixth of Australia's.

BTW, about 90,000 Americans have died since Sandy Hook. Listing them by cause would leave those killed by violent homicide as a tiny footnote at the bottom.
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Old December 22 2012, 10:52 PM   #322
Locutus of Bored
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
The Russians completely banned guns about 90 years ago. They're still waiting for their murder rate to drop to US levels.
No, they didn't. STOP MAKING SHIT UP. Goddamn, you're awful.

To summarize the Russian weapons laws for civilians
who are not government employees:

• No permission or registration is needed to
purchase and carry chemical defense weapons
(e.g., tear gas guns) or electric defense devices
such as stun guns.
• Citizens have the right to acquire shotguns for
self-defense and sport.
• After five years of lawful ownership of a
shotgun, a citizen may obtain a permit to
purchase and use rifles for sporting purposes.
• An individual may own up to five rifles and five
shotguns.
• Handguns are prohibited.
• All firearms must be registered.
• Before obtaining one’s first firearm, one must
receive instruction in firearms laws and safety.
Every five years, the firearms owner must pass
a test demonstrating continuing knowledge of
these subjects.
• The first-time owner must also obtain a medical
certification that he or she does not have any
disqualifying conditions, such as mental illness
or alcoholism.

http://www.davekopel.com/Russian/rus...-arms-laws.pdf
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
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Old December 22 2012, 10:58 PM   #323
beamMe
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Since 2000, about 500 children have been killed by televisions and about 60 have died in school attacks. You just don't want to give up your TV, so you pretend that we're having a Sandy Hook every day.
Are referring to this http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-...ds-govt-warns/ ?

The numbers you give are wrong.
Your comparison is completely harebrained.
No, I hadn't seen that one. I was back estimating from an aggregated estimate, which was obviously 40 percent high, as your more accurate number is 349 children killed by televisions since 2000, only five times higher than the number of children killed in school attacks.
Even when you don't make them up in your head you get the numbers wrong.

gturner wrote: View Post
But obviously even one child killed by televisions is too many, and this television holocaust will not stop until we ban them and eliminate them from society entirely. But lots of people who care more about watching Star Trek reruns than dead children oppose these efforts.

And then we can work on banning dressers, cabinets, sofas, stoves, swimming pools, and most importantly, cars, none of which are protected by the Constitution, and all of which are pretty useless at stopping a crazed lunatic intent on murdering your family and stealing all your stuff. Even according to the Brady Center, that happens over 100,000 times a year, whereas other estimates put that number at several million. This keeps things like the US assault rate at about a sixth of Australia's.

BTW, about 90,000 Americans have died since Sandy Hook. Listing them by cause would leave those killed by violent homicide as a tiny footnote at the bottom.
So you accept gun-murders because "death happens anyway in one form or another"?
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Old December 22 2012, 11:16 PM   #324
gturner
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Location: Kentucky
Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

HoHoHocutus wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
The Russians completely banned guns about 90 years ago. They're still waiting for their murder rate to drop to US levels.
No, they didn't. STOP MAKING SHIT UP. Goddamn, you're awful.

To summarize the Russian weapons laws for civilians
who are not government employees:

• No permission or registration is needed to
purchase and carry chemical defense weapons
(e.g., tear gas guns) or electric defense devices
such as stun guns.
• Citizens have the right to acquire shotguns for
self-defense and sport.
• After five years of lawful ownership of a
shotgun, a citizen may obtain a permit to
purchase and use rifles for sporting purposes.
• An individual may own up to five rifles and five
shotguns.
Handguns are prohibited.
• All firearms must be registered.

• Before obtaining one’s first firearm, one must
receive instruction in firearms laws and safety.
Every five years, the firearms owner must pass
a test demonstrating continuing knowledge of
these subjects.
• The first-time owner must also obtain a medical
certification that he or she does not have any
disqualifying conditions, such as mental illness
or alcoholism.

http://www.davekopel.com/Russian/rus...-arms-laws.pdf
Read your own link. They have NO legal pistols and almost no rifles (226,000 in the entire country, which is probably a fifth as many as you'd find in Kentucky or Tennessee).

If Russians had a lot of guns, Stalin couldn't have kept shipping them off to labor camps by the millions.

They are basically disarmed, which is why a gun is only used in a tiny percentage (about 5 percent) of their vast number of murders. They kill twice as many people with knives as we do from all means combined, and knives are less than half their murders. Strangulation, blunt objects, and "unspecified means" rate way up there, and knowing Russian history, unspecified means is probably a state secret involving a vodka bottle and a sharpened potato.
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Old December 22 2012, 11:22 PM   #325
cooleddie74
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
If Russians had a lot of guns, Stalin couldn't have kept shipping them off to labor camps by the millions.

They are basically disarmed
Great. Another "gun control is what Nazis and Communists do so we'd be just as bad as Hitler or Stalin if we attempted any form of it" argument that isn't really an argument.

Godwin and his cousin Lenin must be mighty proud of these shooting threads this past week.
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Old December 22 2012, 11:53 PM   #326
gturner
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Location: Kentucky
Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

beamMe wrote: View Post
So you accept gun-murders because "death happens anyway in one form or another"?
No, I accept guns because they stop a lot of murders. As pointed out above, with guns we have about a fourth of Russia's homicide rate, almost none of which involves a gun.

As the number of guns in the US has soared, along with concealed carry permit holders, the murder rate has plunged. It's not how many guns you have, it's who has those guns. In Mexico, though guns are generally legal, there is only one gun store for the entire nation and gun ownership is relatively rare. Yet Chihuahua's homicide rate is 111 per 100,000, which is just about off the charts.

The US is not like the UK, full of lords in tweed jackets, who, by the way, are now the most violent nation in Europe, and whose rate of violent crime vastly exceeds the US. We will not become like Sweden if you outlaw guns. We're more likely to become a nation of illegal guns with murder rates somewhere between Ukraine and Chihuahua's.

All but one public mass shooting since 1950, where four or more people have been killed, have occured in a gun-free zone. All we're doing is making hunting parks. The average number of people killed in mass public shootings that are ended by police intervension is 14. The average number of people killed when an armed citizen intervenes is 2.5, because when an armed citizen stops it, it means the armed citizen was already at the scene.

In Mumbai India, with incredibly strict gun laws and virtually no firearms culture, eleven young men killed 166 and wounded over 300, holding the city essentially hostage for three days. They even went shooting past a police station, which just locked its gates. In theory, India should be a gun-free utopia. In reality, more Indians than Americans are murdered every year (though their per-capita rate is lower), and they have to worry about being taken over for days by a dozen young guys in sport shirts and slacks who apparently had fewer guns than I used to own.
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Old December 23 2012, 12:25 AM   #327
beamMe
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
So you accept gun-murders because "death happens anyway in one form or another"?
No, I accept guns because they stop a lot of murders. As pointed out above, with guns we have about a fourth of Russia's homicide rate, almost none of which involves a gun.

As the number of guns in the US has soared, along with concealed carry permit holders, the murder rate has plunged. It's not how many guns you have, it's who has those guns. In Mexico, though guns are generally legal, there is only one gun store for the entire nation and gun ownership is relatively rare. Yet Chihuahua's homicide rate is 111 per 100,000, which is just about off the charts.

The US is not like the UK, full of lords in tweed jackets, who, by the way, are now the most violent nation in Europe, and whose rate of violent crime vastly exceeds the US. We will not become like Sweden if you outlaw guns. We're more likely to become a nation of illegal guns with murder rates somewhere between Ukraine and Chihuahua's.

All but one public mass shooting since 1950, where four or more people have been killed, have occured in a gun-free zone. All we're doing is making hunting parks. The average number of people killed in mass public shootings that are ended by police intervension is 14. The average number of people killed when an armed citizen intervenes is 2.5, because when an armed citizen stops it, it means the armed citizen was already at the scene.

In Mumbai India, with incredibly strict gun laws and virtually no firearms culture, eleven young men killed 166 and wounded over 300, holding the city essentially hostage for three days. They even went shooting past a police station, which just locked its gates. In theory, India should be a gun-free utopia. In reality, more Indians than Americans are murdered every year (though their per-capita rate is lower), and they have to worry about being taken over for days by a dozen young guys in sport shirts and slacks who apparently had fewer guns than I used to own.
I only need to look at the homicide rate in the UK and compare it to that in the US. It's four times higher in the US.

I think that says it all.
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Old December 23 2012, 12:33 AM   #328
gturner
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

SantaEddie74 wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
If Russians had a lot of guns, Stalin couldn't have kept shipping them off to labor camps by the millions.

They are basically disarmed
Great. Another "gun control is what Nazis and Communists do so we'd be just as bad as Hitler or Stalin if we attempted any form of it" argument that isn't really an argument.

Godwin and his cousin Lenin must be mighty proud of these shooting threads this past week.
Even some liberal law professors grudgingly published a paper finding an inverse link between fire-arms ownership and genocide. Where citizens are freely allowed to own guns, and do at high rates, genocides don't occur because too many people start shooting back.

Lenin banned guns in 1929, and then began rounded people up and exterminating them, about 20 million by the time it was mostly over in the 1950's.

Turkey instituted gun control in 1911. Within seven years they rounded up and killed over a million Armenians, who had become defenseless.

Nazi Germany's famous gun ban came in 1938, and we all know what happened there.

Guatemala put in gun control in 1964, then in about 15 yeas rid the world of a hundred thousand Mayans.

Uganda passed gun control in 1970, and before that decade was out had gotten rid of 300,000 Christians.

China had the gun control acts of 1951 and 1957, which included the death penalty for selling guns to anyone who resisted any government program. Another 20 to 30 million dead.

Euopean gun laws are all over the map, and their murder rates are all about the same, if not inverse of their restrictiveness. France still lets anyone own a pistol. In Czechoslovakia anyone over 18 can carry a pistol concealed. Italians are only allowed to possess several pistols (and unlimited long guns). After the Finland massacre, Finland decided to let people use semi-automatic pistols because, by gosh, someone should be able to shoot back. They all have lower violence rates than the UK.
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Old December 23 2012, 12:49 AM   #329
beamMe
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
SantaEddie74 wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
If Russians had a lot of guns, Stalin couldn't have kept shipping them off to labor camps by the millions.

They are basically disarmed
Great. Another "gun control is what Nazis and Communists do so we'd be just as bad as Hitler or Stalin if we attempted any form of it" argument that isn't really an argument.

Godwin and his cousin Lenin must be mighty proud of these shooting threads this past week.
Even some liberal law professors grudgingly published a paper finding an inverse link between fire-arms ownership and genocide. Where citizens are freely allowed to own guns, and do at high rates, genocides don't occur because too many people start shooting back.

Lenin banned guns in 1929, and then began rounded people up and exterminating them, about 20 million by the time it was mostly over in the 1950's.

Turkey instituted gun control in 1911. Within seven years they rounded up and killed over a million Armenians, who had become defenseless.

Nazi Germany's famous gun ban came in 1938, and we all know what happened there.

Guatemala put in gun control in 1964, then in about 15 yeas rid the world of a hundred thousand Mayans.

Uganda passed gun control in 1970, and before that decade was out had gotten rid of 300,000 Christians.

China had the gun control acts of 1951 and 1957, which included the death penalty for selling guns to anyone who resisted any government program. Another 20 to 30 million dead.

Euopean gun laws are all over the map, and their murder rates are all about the same, if not inverse of their restrictiveness. France still lets anyone own a pistol. In Czechoslovakia anyone over 18 can carry a pistol concealed. Italians are only allowed to possess several pistols (and unlimited long guns). After the Finland massacre, Finland decided to let people use semi-automatic pistols because, by gosh, someone should be able to shoot back. They all have lower violence rates than the UK.
How can we take you seriously?

Lenin was dead by 1929.

And please educate yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...an_Weapons_Act
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Old December 23 2012, 12:53 AM   #330
Locutus of Bored
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Location: Huntington Beach, California
Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
HoHoHocutus wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
The Russians completely banned guns about 90 years ago. They're still waiting for their murder rate to drop to US levels.
No, they didn't. STOP MAKING SHIT UP. Goddamn, you're awful.

To summarize the Russian weapons laws for civilians
who are not government employees:

• No permission or registration is needed to
purchase and carry chemical defense weapons
(e.g., tear gas guns) or electric defense devices
such as stun guns.
• Citizens have the right to acquire shotguns for
self-defense and sport.
• After five years of lawful ownership of a
shotgun, a citizen may obtain a permit to
purchase and use rifles for sporting purposes.
• An individual may own up to five rifles and five
shotguns.
Handguns are prohibited.
• All firearms must be registered.

• Before obtaining one’s first firearm, one must
receive instruction in firearms laws and safety.
Every five years, the firearms owner must pass
a test demonstrating continuing knowledge of
these subjects.
• The first-time owner must also obtain a medical
certification that he or she does not have any
disqualifying conditions, such as mental illness
or alcoholism.

http://www.davekopel.com/Russian/rus...-arms-laws.pdf
Read your own link.
I did, and I included the fact that handguns are banned despite knowing that you'd pull some goalpost moving bullshit with that single piece of information like you always do, because I'm more interested in posting facts than just things that fit my narrative, like you. How about you fucking learn what "completely banned guns" means before you throw it out a bunch of times in the thread in order to support your made up statistics? I love that you also highlighted guns being "registered" as if that was synonymous with them being banned. God, you are the most dishonest and misleading person I've ever had the displeasure of debating here, and you have stiff competition from one of your fellow gun nuts in the thread.

beamMe wrote: View Post
How can we take you seriously?

Lenin was dead by 1929.
He wanted to make sure the people were disarmed before he came back as a zombie.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Last edited by Locutus of Bored; December 23 2012 at 01:07 AM.
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