RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,148
Posts: 5,343,637
Members: 24,594
Currently online: 539
Newest member: Whiskeyjack

TrekToday headlines

New Funko Trek Figure
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Saldana As A Role Model
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

San Diego Comic-Con Trek Fan Guide
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Cumberbatch As Turing
By: T'Bonz on Jul 21

Retro Review: In the Pale Moonlight
By: Michelle on Jul 19

Trek Beach Towel
By: T'Bonz on Jul 18

Two New Starships Collection Releases
By: T'Bonz on Jul 17

Giacchino Tour Arrives In North America
By: T'Bonz on Jul 17

IDW Publishing October Star Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Jul 16

Cho As Romantic Lead
By: T'Bonz on Jul 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Sports and Fitness

Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 13 2012, 05:31 AM   #121
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: NHLOL Offseason

Danny99 wrote: View Post
Is it just me or does Bettman pull all his offers off the table instead of negotiating from them?
I said this earlier. Bettman doesn't negotiate, he puts an outrageous offer on the table, the players make a counter-offer, then he yanks everything off the table, screams "fuck you everything is gone and we're back to square one," then runs to the media and cries that the greedy players aren't trying. In the past, the league didn't have to worry about that, since Eagleson was a corrupt crook and completely in bed with Ziegler, and Goodenow was an incompetent, ineffective boob who had no idea of how to deal with the league pushing back hard at him. Bettman has never dealt with a union that actually knows how to negotiate, and it is completely infuriating him after two decades of kicking the union around whenever he felt like it.
Timby is offline  
Old December 13 2012, 09:44 PM   #122
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: NHL Offseason

Josan wrote: View Post
I`m not on either side.
Uh, say what?
I see the players as what they are: spoiled little rich kids. They work for the owners. It`s that simple. They receive far better benefits, perks and salaries than those that pay their salaries (the fans) and have no regard for the jobs they've taken from European players or the loss of income to those who work in the arenas or the businesses nearby.
And so you aren't biased (for the owners) because you tell us you aren't? Is that what you're going with?
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline  
Old December 13 2012, 10:18 PM   #123
Josan
Commodore
 
Josan's Avatar
 
Location: London, Canada
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Josan
Re: NHL Offseason

gblews wrote: View Post
Josan wrote: View Post
I`m not on either side.
Uh, say what?
I see the players as what they are: spoiled little rich kids. They work for the owners. It`s that simple. They receive far better benefits, perks and salaries than those that pay their salaries (the fans) and have no regard for the jobs they've taken from European players or the loss of income to those who work in the arenas or the businesses nearby.
And so you aren't biased (for the owners) because you tell us you aren't? Is that what you're going with?
Beyond your ability to comprehend? It's pretty simple. As I've said many times, I have no sympathy for either side. Just because I view a certain segment of players as coddled and spoiled doesn't mean I side with the owners.
__________________
Winterwind - Re-vamped and Re-launched July 2013
http://www.winterwind-productions.com
Issue 19 of the Winterwind Papers now online
Nationalism, brotherhood, 'pop' culture and puppy love
Josan is offline  
Old December 14 2012, 12:42 AM   #124
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: NHL Offseason

Josan wrote: View Post
Beyond your ability to comprehend? It's pretty simple. As I've said many times, I have no sympathy for either side. Just because I view a certain segment of players as coddled and spoiled doesn't mean I side with the owners.
You weren't segmenting it out. You said, "I see the players as what they are." That's a generalization, you can't backpedal from it.

Still waiting for an answer to this, also:

Tiny Timby wrote: View Post
Okay, so, since you agree that the CBA was essentially fine, how is Fehr the issue when the union went to the league and said, "Let's fix the contract loopholes and otherwise keep the CBA the way it is?" I don't think you're fully grasping just how ideologically driven the lockout is on the owners' part. They're the ones who opened up with offering the players 47 percent of hockey-related revenue, down from 57 percent. They're the ones who have demanded (another) salary rollback. They're the ones demanding that you have to play for ten years before hitting unrestricted free agency. They're the ones demanding that entry-level contracts run for five years.

The owners were signing players to contracts all summer with full intention of not honoring them. It's reprehensible.
Timby is offline  
Old December 14 2012, 02:05 AM   #125
Josan
Commodore
 
Josan's Avatar
 
Location: London, Canada
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Josan
Re: NHLOL Offseason

There's no backpedalling involved. Learn to read all of a post, not just the parts that suit your fancy. I've stated quite clearly that the only players I have any sympathy and respect for are the third and fourth line guys making barely more than league minimum or the players that stayed here in NA to play charity games instead of bolting to Europe to take jobs from other people.

You're pro-player. I'm not. I don't support either side. Some of the owners are a problem. Not all of them. Some of the players are a problem. Not all of them. Bettman has flaws and I've never liked him. Fehr has flaws and I've never liked him either. But it's hardly worth the long, drawn out back and forth you seem to be seeking. The subject just isn't that interesting and making sure I've dotted all my I's and crossed all my T's to your satisfaction, and expanded on every single little point so there can be no room for even the teensiest tiniest bit of misinterpretation, on a quick reply on a message board isn't something that I need to do.

Another poster posted views similar to my own one page back. See if he's interested in debating the issue with you.
__________________
Winterwind - Re-vamped and Re-launched July 2013
http://www.winterwind-productions.com
Issue 19 of the Winterwind Papers now online
Nationalism, brotherhood, 'pop' culture and puppy love
Josan is offline  
Old December 14 2012, 02:23 AM   #126
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: NHLOL Offseason

You are being so intellectually disingenuous that it's bordering on hilarious. You keep on saying that you're not on either side and you take some passing shots at Bettman, and then you go on about how the big bad Donald Fehr is the real problem.

You have agreed that the existing CBA was perfectly fine, outside of the loophole mega contracts that the NHLPA already agreed to fix. The players first said they'd love to continue playing under the CBA, with a few tweaks to fix things like those contracts. Then, after the league dug in, the union began making concession after concession -- remember, the players have consented to going down from 57 percent of hockey-related revenue to 50 percent of hockey-related revenue. They don't see a cent of arena, concession and parking revenues (think about that the next time you pay ten bucks for a stadium beer). In terms of overall revenue, the players' share was already 50 / 50 at best under the former agreement.

I'm not necessarily pro-player -- I'm pro-the side that did not decide to start an ideologically driven labor war and start the league's third work stoppage in two decades when the system was working perfectly fine. Do you know why Major League Baseball hasn't had a sniff of labor strife outside of a possible strike over drug testing in 2002 (which Fehr quashed) for decades? Because after he got Bud Selig and company finally behaving like adults and bargaining like equals, everyone realized that the league and the players are in it together it's best for both sides to benefit. That's why the NHLPA hired Fehr. After tossing Bob Goodenow out on his worthless ass, they knew from the two prior lockouts that they'd be going through the same lockout song and dance seven years later, and they knew they needed a strong representative.

You still have yet to answer the question: When you agree that the CBA was fine, how are the players -- and Fehr -- the problem? This isn't the union going on strike to go back to the pre-2005 CBA, this is the owners deciding to blow up a collective bargaining agreement that was making everyone money hand over fist.

Last edited by Timby; December 14 2012 at 03:04 AM.
Timby is offline  
Old December 15 2012, 04:07 AM   #127
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: NHLOL Offseason

After word broke that the NHLPA Executive Board had voted to give the union membership a vote to authorize a disclaimer of interest (which is essentially identical to de-certification, but requires far fewer steps), the NHL got pre-emptive and filed a class-action lawsuit in federal court to have the lockout declared legal and that any such disclaimer filing would be illegal. The NHLPA is certain to file a counter-suit.

This is going nuclear, and unless there is a swift resolution, this could easily impact next season, too.
Timby is offline  
Old December 22 2012, 07:03 PM   #128
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: NHLOL Offseason

By a vote of 706 - 22, the players have authorized the executive board to file a disclaimer of interest and dissolve the union. Shit's getting real.
Timby is offline  
Old December 22 2012, 07:56 PM   #129
Gil T.Azell
Rear Admiral
 
Gil T.Azell's Avatar
 
Location: On the Left Coast
Re: NHLOL Offseason

Tiny Timby wrote: View Post
..
This is going nuclear, and unless there is a swift resolution, this could easily impact next season, too.
DEFCON 3 ??

Not liking this at all.
__________________
When you walk into a building soaking wet and someone asks you if it is raining then just smile and answer:"No, I just took my fish for a walk!"
Gil T.Azell is offline  
Old December 22 2012, 10:03 PM   #130
Timby
GIVE ME YOUR FACE
 
Timby's Avatar
 
Re: NHLOL Offseason

Gil T.Azell wrote: View Post
Tiny Timby wrote: View Post
..
This is going nuclear, and unless there is a swift resolution, this could easily impact next season, too.
DEFCON 3 ??

Not liking this at all.
When the disclaimer of interest is filed, the situation would be at DEFCON 2. And when the first antitrust lawsuit is filed (within about ten seconds after the disclaimer filing), then we're at a whole new level of warfare and shit has gotten real.

The NHL has been trying to divide the union for months and saying that Fehr is manipulating a broken, divided union ... and then 97 percent of the union membership voted to go nuclear. Yep, Fehr sure doesn't have the support of his constituents, Bettman.

This is the situation that the league has been terrified of from the moment the NHLPA hired Fehr (and why they've been trying to demonize him for well over a year). If this reaches the court, there is a very real, non-zero possibility that it establishes precedent that changes the landscape of professional sports in North America, in that it would provide a path forward for players defeating lockouts and forcing them to continue being paid under the terms of existing contracts while CBA negotiations continue. That would be a real issue because the NFL and NBA have become accustomed to being able to lock players out and use their superior financial resources to outlast the players until a new CBA is reached. There's also the very real possibility that the non-statutory labor exemption gets blown up in court. That exemption is basically the backbone for all of the cartel-like stuff that North American sports leagues get away with: Drafts, restrictions on free agency, salary caps, etc., that would normally be laughed out of court because they are so ridiculously anti-competitive.

The key provision of the non-statutory exemption is that it HAS to be run in cooperation with a legitimate, adversarial union through a negotiated CBA. No union, no exemption. That is very scary to owners who want to have their private boys' club where they control all the strings and can manipulate civic governments and players and fans in ways that no other business ever could.

I've always found it very ironic that here in the United States, land of the free market above all, we've allowed arguably our largest entertainment product (pro sports) to be run essentially as something roughly analogous to pre-capitalist feudal fiefdoms. Meanwhile, those commie Europeans and their communist Marxisms have taken much more of a pro-competition free-market approach to their sports leagues.

tl;dr: Roger Goodell and David Stern will have Bettman murdered if this gets to the courts and a decision is reached in favor of the players.

Last edited by Timby; December 22 2012 at 10:41 PM.
Timby is offline  
Old December 23 2012, 03:08 AM   #131
gblews
Rear Admiral
 
gblews's Avatar
 
Location: So. Cal.
View gblews's Twitter Profile
Re: NHLOL Offseason

Tiny Timby wrote: View Post
By a vote of 706 - 22, the players have authorized the executive board to file a disclaimer of interest and dissolve the union. Shit's getting real.
About damn time. Now, after the first anti trust lawsuits are filed, we;ll see if the owners are forced to negotiate in good faith.
__________________
Duckman: I'll never forget the last thing my father said to me...
Cornfed: "Careful son, I don't think the safety's on"?
Duckman: BEFORE THAT!!!
gblews is offline  
Old December 23 2012, 11:35 AM   #132
Kestrel
Vice Admiral
 
Kestrel's Avatar
 
Location: East Tennessee
Re: NHLOL Offseason

Tiny Timby wrote: View Post
There's also the very real possibility that the non-statutory labor exemption gets blown up in court. That exemption is basically the backbone for all of the cartel-like stuff that North American sports leagues get away with: Drafts, restrictions on free agency, salary caps, etc., that would normally be laughed out of court because they are so ridiculously anti-competitive.
This going away would be terrible - terrrible - for NA sports leagues. Just more reason to be pro-strong union!
__________________
"If Romeo had just masturbated a couple of times a week he would have saved both those nice families a heap of trouble."
Kestrel is offline  
Old December 25 2012, 05:42 PM   #133
Gil T.Azell
Rear Admiral
 
Gil T.Azell's Avatar
 
Location: On the Left Coast
Re: NHLOL Offseason

Seems to me to be a bit redundant?


__________________
When you walk into a building soaking wet and someone asks you if it is raining then just smile and answer:"No, I just took my fish for a walk!"
Gil T.Azell is offline  
Old December 25 2012, 06:17 PM   #134
BigFoot
Admiral
 
BigFoot's Avatar
 
Location: Slovenia (EU)
Re: NHLOL Offseason

^
BigFoot is online now  
Old December 28 2012, 05:13 PM   #135
Danny99
Vice Admiral
 
Danny99's Avatar
 
Location: Cookstown, Ontario, Canada
Re: NHLOL Offseason

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412368

Here we go again.
__________________
The poster previously known as canadaboy_32
Danny99 is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:19 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.