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Old August 16 2012, 09:30 AM   #16
R. Star
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

Drago-Kazov wrote: View Post
Picard ruled Toral's challenge valid, an assassin would kill Gowron before the fight.
Why wouldn't the assasin kill him anyway, besides Gowron has to have best security in the quadrant.
Gowron actually had some shoddy security in those two episodes. In Redemption 2 a random guy just walks up, draws a knife and fights Gowron for example. Even a relative nobody like Kurn boasted about being able to kill Gowron and I don't think it was idle.

As to why not have Gowron killed before Toral's challenge? I would assume it is because Picard didn't rule Toral's challenge for the leadership valid. As the arbiter he decided who could and couldn't challenge. If they killed Gowron before Toral's challenge was approved, they'd probably have to go through all that cerimony they did in Reunion again, which would probably just result in a civil war anyways after a long period of waiting for new challengers and the such.

If Picard had ruled the challenge valid, then the assassin would have killed Gowron and Toral would be left as the only challenger for leadership, much like it was with Gowron when Worf killed Duras.

As it happens, Picard found Toral's challenge invalid and the Duras Sisters pretty much stopped bothering with Toral as a proxy and openly tried to overthrow Gowron with Romulan help.
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Old August 16 2012, 10:48 AM   #17
Drago-Kazov
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

Gowron actually had some shoddy security in those two episodes. In Redemption 2 a random guy just walks up, draws a knife and fights Gowron for example. Even a relative nobody like Kurn boasted about being able to kill Gowron and I don't think it was idle.
Then he must have studied up on melee because he nearly killed Worf in DS 9.

As for the shoddy security his klingon bodyguards probably cannot stop a challanger from taking part in honorable combat.

If Picard had ruled the challenge valid, then the assassin would have killed Gowron and Toral would be left as the only challenger for leadership, much like it was with Gowron when Worf killed Duras.
That little punk would get challenged and killed immediatly. if we want to retcon it here is an explanation:
If Gowron dies instead of the civil war having 2 camps it would have 3 or four because only Gowron can unite certain houses to fight together.


By the way if Gowron would had said here and now Toral would it had been owrite or do they have to do that in a sacred chamber at x pm?
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Old August 16 2012, 10:51 AM   #18
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

I'm not sure there's just this one way to read the bit about challenge vs. assassination.

Picard: "If I find Toral's challenge valid, the two of you will very quickly gain control of the Council and Gowron will be found dead shortly thereafter."
It seems to me Picard could be saying that the sequence of events is the following: Picard rules in favor of challenge -> a duel takes place and Toral of course is slain -> even the most "honorable" backers of Duras, seeing the direct path to throne formally blocked, flock under the wings of the Sisters for more covert action -> the Sisters now have enough backing to arrange for the assassination of Gowron.

If Picard does not allow the duel to take place, the Sisters have shot themselves in their feet, because the pro-Duras factions will now wait for Toral to reach the age and fighting competence to take the throne...

By the way if Gowron would had said here and now Toral would it had been owrite or do they have to do that in a sacred chamber at x pm?
Worf certainly reassigned the Chancellor's title without a formal appointment.

Perhaps there would be incentive to arrange for a formal spectacle in the Toral vs. Gowron case, as both sides would want good publicity more than victory. The Duras party would know they couldn't win the duel, so they'd want to milk on the public embarrassment of a grown-up warrior slaying a little boy.

Gowron would want to brush it all under the carpet as quickly as possible, of course. But he might also realize that if he did so, it might look dubious; better kill Toral in public, so that even the most reactionary forces in faraway corners of the Empire would feel that old-style justice has been served.

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Old August 16 2012, 06:23 PM   #19
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

Even though it doesn't exist on screen, there would have to be more nuance to this society than what turns up on tv, or indeed in the books, if it were to be a ... realistic ... society. Surely there must be many different forms of this society, many layers and different aptitudes - not simply the one-uniform wearing kind of monosociety we are most familiar with? Also surely our view of the society is skewed by seeing through its aristocracy, whose martial believes might be very different from other classes, and the depiction of which cannot genuinely reflect values and cultures from different worlds - each with hundreds of years of linked-yet-separate development.
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Old August 16 2012, 07:41 PM   #20
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

You should read A Burning House by KRAD.
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Old August 16 2012, 09:07 PM   #21
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
Even though it doesn't exist on screen, there would have to be more nuance to this society than what turns up on tv, or indeed in the books, if it were to be a ... realistic ... society. Surely there must be many different forms of this society, many layers and different aptitudes - not simply the one-uniform wearing kind of monosociety we are most familiar with? Also surely our view of the society is skewed by seeing through its aristocracy, whose martial believes might be very different from other classes, and the depiction of which cannot genuinely reflect values and cultures from different worlds - each with hundreds of years of linked-yet-separate development.
Not all Klingons are warriors, just the majority of the ones we see on screen. In "Playing God" Dax can be seen flirting with a fat Klingon cook with an opera voice. In "Rules of Engagement" we see that Klingon lawyer who was actually a pretty cool and provacative character. And in one of Kor's DS9 episodes, he complains that young people are now opening resturants and opera halls among the aliens he killed in battle when he was young.
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Old August 19 2012, 10:08 AM   #22
Drago-Kazov
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

I wonder about warrior klingons meeting the cook or any other klingon living in the Carnellian Regency or the Federation or on Bajor. Do they ahve to challange them and kill them for being honorless petaq's because they left the Empire or they just treat them as they threat klingon peasants or engeeniers back home?
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Old August 19 2012, 01:08 PM   #23
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Jarvisimo wrote: View Post
Even though it doesn't exist on screen, there would have to be more nuance to this society than what turns up on tv, or indeed in the books, if it were to be a ... realistic ... society. Surely there must be many different forms of this society, many layers and different aptitudes - not simply the one-uniform wearing kind of monosociety we are most familiar with? Also surely our view of the society is skewed by seeing through its aristocracy, whose martial believes might be very different from other classes, and the depiction of which cannot genuinely reflect values and cultures from different worlds - each with hundreds of years of linked-yet-separate development.
Not all Klingons are warriors, just the majority of the ones we see on screen. In "Playing God" Dax can be seen flirting with a fat Klingon cook with an opera voice. In "Rules of Engagement" we see that Klingon lawyer who was actually a pretty cool and provacative character. And in one of Kor's DS9 episodes, he complains that young people are now opening resturants and opera halls among the aliens he killed in battle when he was young.
Completely, and I loved the complexification of civilian society in The Left Hand of Destiny and Gorkon books too; however, I was more meaning a diversity within the empire's martial traditions, since the empire is large, hundreds of years old and complex - as well as dominated by aristocratic households who - if like the households of earth's past empires (including those of modernity, such as the British, Russian and French Empires) split in different territories - would vary, as much as linguistic and artistic trends vary from one region to another. But that is a poor analogy, since the empire on screen is a claustrophobic monosociety (linguistically, artistically and maritally), whereas the aforementioned empires were anything but.
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Old December 17 2012, 12:47 AM   #24
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

[QUOTE=Timo;6778331]It will probably take quite a bit of maneuvering to keep your reputation intact if you cower behind a wall of bodyguards. It may be that this only ever happens if the young man or woman being protected is under the wing of a respected and highly positioned patron or matron whose virtue goes unchallenged. (I wonder if Krax had bodyguards - and if those took a step back every time somebody like Worf threw a legitimate challenge at the boy?)

Do you mean Drex, Martok's son?
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Old December 17 2012, 12:50 AM   #25
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

I believe that during a "formal" challenge,it is the right of the Challenger to choose the weapon of choice. Though as we've seen, most challenges occur on the spur of the moment with what ever is available at hand, usually a dk'tagh or bat'leth.

Last edited by KQuita; December 17 2012 at 12:55 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old December 17 2012, 10:00 AM   #26
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

Holy Necro Batman!
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Old December 17 2012, 01:29 PM   #27
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

It's not that old. I would not allow her to go on a date with you.
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Old December 17 2012, 01:58 PM   #28
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

Yup, I meant Drex the Klingon son rather than Krax the Ferengi son. Sorry about that!

But the Earth tradition on challenges is that the one issuing the challenge is not at liberty to choose the weapons - if anything, the party being challenged is, but that's a somewhat rare interpretation of the "rules". Generally, the two sides will come to some sort of an agreement about the terms of the fight before the fight takes place, but with so many variables there that Klingons would no doubt grow weary of the proceedings and slay everybody involved. They have never been shown discussing the terms, or arguing about the choice of weapons - but sword is countered by sword rather than by disruptor or starship, so presumably the Klingons have ideas about this. It would appear a bit unlikely that a "nerdy" strategic genius would get to choose a weapon allowing him to defeat a master swordsman.

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Old December 21 2012, 10:57 PM   #29
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

KRAD's IKS Gorkon books are practically required reading on this subject.

You can't just challenge someone to combat without good cause, and certainly not someone of high rank or social status. If that person's bodyguards (or even just the onlookers) see that the challenge isn't valid, they'll kill the challenger for his impertinence. As has been mentioned, Klingon society simply has to have evolved these checks and balances, to prevent total chaos.
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Old December 21 2012, 10:58 PM   #30
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Re: What happens to Klingons who are good tactics but suck at melee?

^ Also, Dax said pretty much the same thing when she and Worf went to serve on Martok's ship during that one DS9 episode.
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