RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,914
Posts: 5,388,444
Members: 24,719
Currently online: 495
Newest member: victoria

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 8 2012, 08:49 PM   #31
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

I've always taken the position that the main campus of Starfleet Academy is in San Francisco, but but there are other facilities affiliated with the Academy throughout the Federation. Some cadets may spend only a year or two in San Francisco, but receive additional real-world training as midshipman officers aboard an actual active duty vessel or base before getting their commissions. References to being "at the Academy" could refer both to the time they were physically there as well as the time spent training elsewhere, but still under its program, IMO.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2012, 11:15 PM   #32
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Nog wasn't a Federation citizen and he got in. However, I think non-Federation citizens need a recommendation from a Starfleet command officer, which Nog got from Sisko.
I bet whoever gave Ro her recommendation, regretted it later...especially after the disaster at Garon II.

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Bones is a good example. He went to Ol' Miss and then went on to medical school. If he were to join the modern navy, all he'd have to do is enroll in OCS. But instead he went to the Academy.
Maybe that was OCS that McCoy took part in (during ST XI). We don't know that he and Kirk were at the Academy for the same amount of time. They left on the same shuttle, and we saw them take the Kobayashi Maru test together, but that's it, really. McCoy could have been there for a much shorter time than Kirk was.

And who knows - maybe the only reason McCoy was present during the test in the first place was that he's a friend of Kirk's. Kirk could have asked to have him there. It could be Starfleet policy to have a cadet be able to choose those who'll be manning the other stations during the test. Could be that if not for Kirk, McCoy would have never been there. It's not like he's a command officer, anyway.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2012, 12:04 AM   #33
tighr
Commodore
 
tighr's Avatar
 
Location: California
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Especially considering McCoy was already a Doctor by that point.
__________________
~Tighr™: Not helping the situation since 1983
tighr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2012, 12:05 AM   #34
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

"Bones, I want you to be on the bridge with me when I take my test."
"DAMMIT JIM, I'm a doctor, not a helmsman!"

__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2012, 04:00 PM   #35
sbk1234
Rear Admiral
 
sbk1234's Avatar
 
Location: Los Angeles
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

It would also make some sense that even medical officers recieve some trianing in starship operations, since the time may come when they have to take over in an emergency situation.
Even though he probably wasn't there as long as Kirk or was taking most of the same classes.
It also would make sense that his medical school on Earth focused on Human medicine, while his Starfleet medical training focused largely on extraterrestrial medicine.
__________________
In all the history of the world, a riot has NEVER broken out at a Sci-Fi convention.

"It's a fucking TV show!" - Gary Lockwood
sbk1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2012, 04:20 PM   #36
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Random points:

- A noncom getting into a training program for relatively quick conversion to commissioned officer is common practice in the real world. It would have been quite fitting for, say, Chief O'Brien to undergo such training and get a commission because he essentially did department head work normally done by commissioned officers. We know he did not, but OTOH we see Janice Rand proceed from supposed noncom status in TOS to verified noncom status in TMP (she wears a noncom insignia, even if it's difficult to notice) to verified officer status in the later movies.

- Getting a recommendation from a Starfleet officer is not something specific to non-Federation hopefuls, because Kirk refers to similar patronage as having been part of his own career, in "The Apple". Or are we perhaps to assume that Kirk was not a Federation citizen originally? His childhood did involve a stint at the Tarsus IV colony that did not appear to have much respect for UFP laws and practices.

- Varying lengths of Academy studies are more or less confirmed already: we know of a few four-year stints (even if only through computer readouts in TNG "Conundrum", a cornucopia of such information), but also of a five-year undertaking ("Bread and Circuses") and of a three-year performance (STXI). We also get references to Deanna Troi studying in both Starfleet Academy and the University of Betazeds, quite possibly simultaneously, or perhaps in a fashion that indicates relatively short SF Academy studies.

- The rigorous testing and initial flunking of Wesley and Jean-Luc might be solely due to them having been underage applicants, at least the first time around. Eighteen seems to be the entry norm for H.sapiens, and might be the age limit below which special competence must be demonstrated.

- The brief reference to O'Brien's Academy studies in "Trials and Tribble-ations" was more a joke than anything else, and might be dismissed without assuming that O'Brien ever set foot in an Academy lecture hall.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 04:07 AM   #37
Star Wolf
Rear Admiral
 
Star Wolf's Avatar
 
Location: ciudad de Los Angeles
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Minuet wrote: View Post
As far as I can tell, anyone can enlist and become a non-com crewman, but according to a Voyager episode ("Meld" I think), non-coms can be recommended for the officer program. So, already it's working differently than the actual military. Then again, I know less about the actual military than I thought I did, so I could be wrong on that.
By the modern military I guess you mean the United States Military as other nations have their own standards. Both NonComs and enlisted lower ranks can be recommended for officer training, but a recommendation alone is not enough to get a service member into an academy a ROTC program or Officer's Candidate school.

Maybe to be an officer, you need good grades, but any schmuck can become a non-com. Or maybe to be a officer, you just need to take a lot more schooling. Non-coms can clearly advance to become officers at some point, just like in the real military (okay, I know for a fact that happens, at least).

Any enlightenment on this issue? I realize this sort of thing is poorly developed in snippets across the entire breadth of the franchise, so we don't have much to go on.
There is no evidence that any schmuck can be a NCO, in fact schmuck status seems to be reserved for your basic Ensign and Lieutenant before the latest movie. As the only one of his kind we have extensive screen time with Chief O'Brian come across more like the Top Soldier, who has been more rigorously selected then the young Ensigns and Lieutenants assigned to his department on DS9
__________________
I'm not crazy! All I Really Need to Know I learned by Watching The Wire
Star Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 08:18 PM   #38
Karnbeln
Lieutenant Commander
 
Karnbeln's Avatar
 
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Star Wolf wrote: View Post
There is no evidence that any schmuck can be a NCO, in fact schmuck status seems to be reserved for your basic Ensign and Lieutenant before the latest movie. As the only one of his kind we have extensive screen time with Chief O'Brian come across more like the Top Soldier, who has been more rigorously selected then the young Ensigns and Lieutenants assigned to his department on DS9
This is the interpretation I take. It seems like the vast majority of people in Starfleet are officers, with the non-comms being an exception.

My guess is that you need a decent amount of training and education to work on a Federation starship, no matter what your job is, and Starfleet would rather take care of that training itself. It also simplifies the rank structure and allows anybody on the ship the opportunity to potentially rise up to be an admiral, making it a true meritocracy. Non-comms are specialists, people who didn't go to the academy but were granted the opportunity to work in Starfleet because of their great knowledge and skill.

This allows both the inclusion of non-comms and Gene Roddenberry's early claim that everyone in TNG's Starfleet was an officier.
Karnbeln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 10:11 PM   #39
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Come on now, everybody knows that when selecting new Starfleet cadets, they round up the most gifted people in small groups of four or five and put them through a winner take all academic decathlon.

Nog must have nailed that dynamic relationships test.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 10:18 PM   #40
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Well, since Wesley clearly was fighting for a place in a specific quota, it sounds pretty natural to assume that it was the small quota for grossly underage hopefuls. It's difficult to tell with Benzites, I guess, but the others really were a bunch of kids. (Or what Hollywood expects us to accept as kids, at any rate.)

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 10:43 PM   #41
KamenRiderBlade
Lieutenant Commander
 
KamenRiderBlade's Avatar
 
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Karnbeln wrote: View Post
Star Wolf wrote: View Post
There is no evidence that any schmuck can be a NCO, in fact schmuck status seems to be reserved for your basic Ensign and Lieutenant before the latest movie. As the only one of his kind we have extensive screen time with Chief O'Brian come across more like the Top Soldier, who has been more rigorously selected then the young Ensigns and Lieutenants assigned to his department on DS9
This is the interpretation I take. It seems like the vast majority of people in Starfleet are officers, with the non-comms being an exception.

My guess is that you need a decent amount of training and education to work on a Federation starship, no matter what your job is, and Starfleet would rather take care of that training itself. It also simplifies the rank structure and allows anybody on the ship the opportunity to potentially rise up to be an admiral, making it a true meritocracy. Non-comms are specialists, people who didn't go to the academy but were granted the opportunity to work in Starfleet because of their great knowledge and skill.

This allows both the inclusion of non-comms and Gene Roddenberry's early claim that everyone in TNG's Starfleet was an officier.
I agree with your interpretation.

In the future, I bet they'll probably merge the Non Com into the Officer route and make everybody an Officer in name.

Yet everybody will train in the same basic skills / technologies and learn until they are mature enough to go into the command route if that's what they choose to do.
KamenRiderBlade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 17 2012, 04:19 AM   #42
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
Karnbeln wrote: View Post
Star Wolf wrote: View Post
There is no evidence that any schmuck can be a NCO, in fact schmuck status seems to be reserved for your basic Ensign and Lieutenant before the latest movie. As the only one of his kind we have extensive screen time with Chief O'Brian come across more like the Top Soldier, who has been more rigorously selected then the young Ensigns and Lieutenants assigned to his department on DS9
This is the interpretation I take. It seems like the vast majority of people in Starfleet are officers, with the non-comms being an exception.

My guess is that you need a decent amount of training and education to work on a Federation starship, no matter what your job is, and Starfleet would rather take care of that training itself. It also simplifies the rank structure and allows anybody on the ship the opportunity to potentially rise up to be an admiral, making it a true meritocracy. Non-comms are specialists, people who didn't go to the academy but were granted the opportunity to work in Starfleet because of their great knowledge and skill.

This allows both the inclusion of non-comms and Gene Roddenberry's early claim that everyone in TNG's Starfleet was an officier.
I agree with your interpretation.

In the future, I bet they'll probably merge the Non Com into the Officer route and make everybody an Officer in name.

Yet everybody will train in the same basic skills / technologies and learn until they are mature enough to go into the command route if that's what they choose to do.
Well the "O" in NCO does stand for "officer."

My father was in the USAF. He joined as a kid who hadn't graduated high school and retired as a highly trained technician (and Master Sergeant) who parlayed that training into a long career in the aerospace industry. I don't see why the same can't be true for Starfleet's enlisted.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 19 2012, 06:22 PM   #43
Star Wolf
Rear Admiral
 
Star Wolf's Avatar
 
Location: ciudad de Los Angeles
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Or Gene was also LAPD where "officer" ranked Lieutenants are treated as ordinary officers but then Captains and Commanders are considered command staff along with the Chiefs. Of course in Trek we have many "command staff" Ensigns and LTs while the bulk of those officers seem to do only the specific duties we are applying to the enlisted and NCO ranks of today's military and Starfleet.
__________________
I'm not crazy! All I Really Need to Know I learned by Watching The Wire
Star Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20 2012, 12:20 AM   #44
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

One would have to assume that they don't have a single facility in the whole Federation turning out officers either.

Either, Starfleet Academy is similar to the US Army's relationship with West Point, meaning that it's the premiere academy, but hardly the only place you can get a commission from, or the Academy had multiple installations all across the Federation.

If you have a fleet of thousands of ships and outposts across a Federation that had 300 + worlds, I don't care if the San Fransisco Facility turns out 50,000 people per class with a 100% graduation rate(which we know doesn't happen), that's not gonna cut it.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 20 2012, 02:06 AM   #45
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: OK, How Does Starfleet Academy Work Exactly?

Star Grinch wrote: View Post
One would have to assume that they don't have a single facility in the whole Federation turning out officers either.
Unfortunately, it does seem to be the case. Just look at the statistics:

In TOS we know Kirk, Spock, Sulu and Chekov did attend the Academy. If you take Trek XI into account, we have proof for everyone except Scotty attending the Academy.

In TNG everyone went to the Academy according to their computer files in Conundrum.

In DS9 Sisko, Bashir, O'Brien, Nog, and Admiral Ross are all confirmed to have attended the Academy. Yes, even the enlisted man attended the Academy, apparentally.

In Voyager we know Janeway, Chakotay, Harry Kim and B'Ellana Torres attended the Academy, and Tuvok even taught there.

Hell, in Enterprise a crewman on the NX-01 somehow had a diploma from Starfleet Academy over ten years before it was even founded.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.