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Old December 18 2012, 11:13 PM   #226
Locutus of Bored
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
Fact never to be spoken: British Americans probably have about the same murder rate as the UK, and African Americans have about the same murder rate as Africa, hitting 50 homicides per 100,000 in the nineties, whereas the overall US rate is 5, the white US rate is 2.5 to 3.5, and the European rate is 0.9 to 10. Hispanic rates are also high, as were Italian rates in the past.
Continue not speaking it lest you want to find out what the infraction rate for Irish-American moderators is, because it's baseless, bigoted bullshit that implies a direct correlation between race/ethnicity and violent behavior absent of circumstances.

I should also point out for anyone that thinks gturner has the least bit of credibility, he also has a tendency to pull completely made up statistics out of his ass or in this case fudge them to serve his needs, like those Wild West European Luxembourgers with their murder rate that's twice that of the US after a full gun ban, neither of which are true.

Luxembourg, for example, has a complete gun ban and a zero ownership rate, but twice the US murder rate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...hip-world-list
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Old December 18 2012, 11:20 PM   #227
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

^ If you read the Harvard Law Review paper cited by the United States Supreme Court, you'll see the nine point one per one-hundred thousand homicide rate for Luxembourg, which has since dropped.

You can't read much of any academic criminology literature or USDOJ or FBI reports without noting that they break the stats down by race, age, gender, relationship, circumstance, weapon, and many other metrics. Your government does this, and its important enough to be an entire branch of academic research.
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Old December 18 2012, 11:28 PM   #228
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
^ If you read the Harvard Law Review paper cited by the United States Supreme Court, you'll see the nine point one per one-hundred thousand homicide rate for Luxembourg, which has since dropped.
What was the year which the data cited in the review came from? I see 1997 for the firearms ownership rates (mine dates from 2007, the most recent year of the survey) and homicide rates from 2000 (mine dates from 2011). In neither case would Luxembourg have a homicide rate twice that of the United States, though.
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Old December 18 2012, 11:50 PM   #229
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

So a UNODC (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime) says the murder rate in Luxembourg is 2.5 / 100 000 and 4.2 / 100 000 for the US, means that the murder rate is approx 1.5 times higher in the US than in Luxembourg.

Whilst a US government report may break them down into race etc... The overall rate per 100 000 population such as used by the UNODC is easy to work it.

And in general the murder rate in countries with more restrictive gun laws is lower.

You can't just pick and choose which stats you use, using the overall figure eliminates things such as ethnic background.
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Old December 19 2012, 12:07 AM   #230
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

I saw this note that said:

LUXEMBOURG: bans all guns. Its murder rate is often comparable to the western European average. But in many other years it is 2-4 times higher.
It cited the nine point one {my number keys are acting up} figure with the souce as

>From JURISTAT: Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics pamphlet "Homicide in Canada, 2002" by Josee Savoie at p. 3, Table titled Homicide Rates for Selected Countries, 2002
But I also see contradictory information on their rates of gun ownership here, which says both that civilians are banned from possessing handguns and longguns {but somehow can get permits for full auto weapons} and that the number of privately held civilian guns in Luxembourg is seventy-thousand, or fifteen point three guns per hundred people, which is more than Venezuela and ranks them as forty-one in the world for gun ownership.

It was interesting that France and Austria let anyone keep pistols, and some gun owners familiar with the country said that Luxembourg was actually less restrictive than Maryland.

ETA: The massive contradictions between Luxembourg's law and the data might be the result of grandfathering in most of what was already owned when their law was passed, which is very commonly done.
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Old December 19 2012, 12:22 AM   #231
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
That's weird. Lots of contradictions and mixed messages. But they have it right in the second-to-last paragraph, at least.
Yeah. That was my take on it, but I was curious what others would think. I expect better of the NYT.
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Old December 19 2012, 12:23 AM   #232
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Starkers wrote: View Post

I'm not sure I understand your comment about us exporting our potential troublemakers?
For an extremely long time the British government would round up all the people they perceived as trouble-makers and low-lifes and ship them to places like Barbados or Australia. They figured they could deport their criminal class and make England a better place.

Obviously it didn't work or England wouldn't have so many soccer hooligans, or maybe it did, since Barbados has ten times the homicide rate of the UK.
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Old December 19 2012, 12:25 AM   #233
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Why do you think a small island nation such as Barbados has a murder rate that high? Culture? Demographics? A large number of available weapons?

Why?
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Old December 19 2012, 12:35 AM   #234
gturner
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

No idea, but probably all those play a role. Almost the entire Carribean has a similarly high homicide rate, including the Virigin Islands, Haiti, Cuba, the Bahamas, Trinidad, Puerto Rico, etc. Perhaps it's as simple as the killing season in the tropics being twice as long, so they kill twice as many people per season.
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Old December 19 2012, 09:51 AM   #235
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post

I'm not sure I understand your comment about us exporting our potential troublemakers?
For an extremely long time the British government would round up all the people they perceived as trouble-makers and low-lifes and ship them to places like Barbados or Australia. They figured they could deport their criminal class and make England a better place.

Obviously it didn't work or England wouldn't have so many soccer hooligans, or maybe it did, since Barbados has ten times the homicide rate of the UK.
Er, transportation was centuries ago

And football hooligans? It isn't 1985 dude...
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Old December 19 2012, 10:12 AM   #236
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

gturner wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post

I'm not sure I understand your comment about us exporting our potential troublemakers?
For an extremely long time the British government would round up all the people they perceived as trouble-makers and low-lifes and ship them to places like Barbados or Australia. They figured they could deport their criminal class and make England a better place.

Obviously it didn't work or England wouldn't have so many soccer hooligans, or maybe it did, since Barbados has ten times the homicide rate of the UK.
Before the British settled Australia at least 50,000 convicts were sent to America (mainly to Maryland and Virginia).
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Old December 19 2012, 10:31 AM   #237
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Besides, many were sent for theft, supporting Irish Home Rule, or other trouble making actions. http://vcp.e2bn.org/justice/page1140...d-reasons.html
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Old December 19 2012, 10:41 AM   #238
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

And Canadians and Americans who took part in the Canadian Rebellion also ended up in Tasmania. We even have a monument dedicated to them in a Hobart park.
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Old December 19 2012, 10:44 AM   #239
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

The idea gturner is selling, that convicts were societal dangers, just doesn't fly. Many simply were not by our standards today. In addition, as seems to be the point of bringing up Transportation, that their descendants would be prone to crime is simply idiotic.
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Old December 19 2012, 10:57 AM   #240
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post

I'm not sure I understand your comment about us exporting our potential troublemakers?
For an extremely long time the British government would round up all the people they perceived as trouble-makers and low-lifes and ship them to places like Barbados or Australia. They figured they could deport their criminal class and make England a better place.

Obviously it didn't work or England wouldn't have so many soccer hooligans, or maybe it did, since Barbados has ten times the homicide rate of the UK.
Before the British settled Australia at least 50,000 convicts were sent to America (mainly to Maryland and Virginia).
Yeah. We got the UK's chavs.

There is a hilarrious book by Jim Goad {a whisky or coke fueled rant} called "The Redneck Manifesto", which explains that not everyone came here voluntarily, and that what American's call trailer trash is the last oppressed group that it's okay to insult without social repercussions, because they're just redneck trailer trash, and have been ever since they were hounded out of Britain {and the single wide was invented}.

One of the ongoing thoughts on black violence and culture is that it almost exactly like that of the American southerners who came from southern England, fixated on reputation, honor, and "street cred." As you dig into it, the connections between us all, and the cultural influences become more and more fascinating. I say this as a member of a family fought a feud that killed about a hundred in extended battles, and who had a cousin who was the only U boat commander executed for war crimes. I am from the deep hills of Appalachia.
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