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Old December 17 2012, 06:52 AM   #31
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

All of the lazy people died in the aftermath of WWIII (you don't work, you don't eat - there's no welfare in the apocalypse!), so there were no lazy genes to pass down.
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Old December 17 2012, 04:57 PM   #32
Deks
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Brainsucker wrote: View Post
Power grabs doesn't require financial system to be happen. Even in a non existence monetary system country, power grabs can be happened.
What would be the point?
If Humans have access to all necessities of life and most (if not all) wants on-demand... what is the point of 'power grabbing'?
The reason that power grabbing happens today is because we live in a socio-economic system that actively promotes such a way of thinking in the first place and creates a setting where it is actually possible.

'Grandiose desires' of domination, etc. stem from a distorted value-system and society that promotes such behavior.

A technologically developed society such as ours without money would realistically do away with governments and people in positions of power because of automation (even governments are delegating decision making to machines to a large degree already - or basically, you arrive at decisions by relying on the information that is accessible via technology) and exposure of the population to relevant general education.

There is simply no point to having a government if an entire population is exposed to relevant general education, because, the more you know, you are less prone to being manipulated/used, are capable of governing yourself, and can even think in a critical capacity along with being a problem solver (industrial education as we have it now does NOT expose you to generalized information in all fields that is actually IMPORTANT, nor does it prompt people to think critically or be problem solvers).
Politicians and bureaucrats are useless - they are NOT problem-solvers.
They don't create change - they mostly serve to perpetuate the status quo and keep things as they are.
They 'might' make some token changes in an existing system, but that is nothing more than 'patching' or 'treating the symptoms', whereas the underlying cause is never addressed, hence we end up with even bigger or that much more problems down the road.

All of the lazy people died in the aftermath of WWIII (you don't work, you don't eat - there's no welfare in the apocalypse!), so there were no lazy genes to pass down.
Genes are responsible for physical traits.
Behavior is environmental - starting from the early stages while we develop in the womb.
And while Humans might be born with certain 'tendencies', whether or not those tendencies manifest depends on the environment you grow up in, along with information/knowledge you are exposed to.
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Last edited by Deks; December 17 2012 at 07:19 PM.
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Old December 18 2012, 10:58 AM   #33
Brainsucker
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Deks wrote: View Post
Brainsucker wrote: View Post
Power grabs doesn't require financial system to be happen. Even in a non existence monetary system country, power grabs can be happened.
What would be the point?
If Humans have access to all necessities of life and most (if not all) wants on-demand... what is the point of 'power grabbing'?
The reason that power grabbing happens today is because we live in a socio-economic system that actively promotes such a way of thinking in the first place and creates a setting where it is actually possible.

'Grandiose desires' of domination, etc. stem from a distorted value-system and society that promotes such behavior.

A technologically developed society such as ours without money would realistically do away with governments and people in positions of power because of automation (even governments are delegating decision making to machines to a large degree already - or basically, you arrive at decisions by relying on the information that is accessible via technology) and exposure of the population to relevant general education.

There is simply no point to having a government if an entire population is exposed to relevant general education, because, the more you know, you are less prone to being manipulated/used, are capable of governing yourself, and can even think in a critical capacity along with being a problem solver (industrial education as we have it now does NOT expose you to generalized information in all fields that is actually IMPORTANT, nor does it prompt people to think critically or be problem solvers).
Politicians and bureaucrats are useless - they are NOT problem-solvers.
They don't create change - they mostly serve to perpetuate the status quo and keep things as they are.
They 'might' make some token changes in an existing system, but that is nothing more than 'patching' or 'treating the symptoms', whereas the underlying cause is never addressed, hence we end up with even bigger or that much more problems down the road.

.
Are you aware that human are multi dimensional creature? 100 Human will have 100 different thinking. Even 1 book that we call bible has been interpreted by uncountable people. So how could a community, even it is in 24th century and more advanced than us could stand without a government? Or maybe you don't know about what we call "Anarchy?"

And as long as I aware, humanity has government in Trek's 24th century.

And btw, have you watch Star Trek Voyager season 3 episode 22? Are you sure that your way of thinking about human in Trek's 24th century is not the same as the Doctor to his "Perfect Virtual Family"? Because the series told me otherwise, that human are still the same as us today.
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Old December 18 2012, 11:50 AM   #34
Deks
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Oh I know that Humans are multi-dimensional, but that doesn't mean that people will turn to anarchy without a government, that things will intricately fall apart that (or that society couldn't function without one).

The reason governments worked in the past and today is because the general population was not 'educated' properly.
Education today is limited to industrialization for the purpose of following orders, getting a job, and contributing to the economy like a 'good little consumer'.

Exposure to relevant general education of the global population would eliminate governments and people in positions of power due to the individual's ability to contemplate notions in a variety of subjects and think critically without being subjected to 'take the word of a governing body' (which interestingly enough almost always distorts information to suit the vested interests in the present system).

When you live in an advanced setting, your decision making is also bound to be switched over to machines (I already gave examples of how this has already been happening in reality on an increasing basis in previous posts).
The only reason Star Trek never went that far is because they wanted to create a show that was 'relate-able' to the audience.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:07 PM   #35
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Deks wrote: View Post
What would be the point?
If Humans have access to all necessities of life and most (if not all) wants on-demand... what is the point of 'power grabbing'?
The reason that power grabbing happens today is because we live in a socio-economic system that actively promotes such a way of thinking in the first place and creates a setting where it is actually possible.

'Grandiose desires' of domination, etc. stem from a distorted value-system and society that promotes such behavior.
Some people are control freaks, so they have a tendency to want to impose their will on others.
Easiest way to do that is to get into some form of power and force change, whether it's for good / bad.
Other people had traumatic experiences happen to them, ergo they find a way to get into power or influence power to effect change based on what they believe / want for the sake of their cause.
Our entire world is full of this from every sort of lobbying group to private organizations around the world. Some for the general good like the EFF (Electronic Freedom Foundation).
Some for selfish reasons like corporate/industry lobbyist like RIAA / MPAA trying to create SOPA/PIPA for their personal gain at the cost of American civil liberties.
Then there will always be people who strive for power for personal gain, even if they don't think they're doing anything wrong or have good intentions.

A technologically developed society such as ours without money would realistically do away with governments and people in positions of power because of automation (even governments are delegating decision making to machines to a large degree already - or basically, you arrive at decisions by relying on the information that is accessible via technology) and exposure of the population to relevant general education.
Even in a UFP like society without money, there would still be a need for government.
Not everybody is going to think exactly alike.
Since we are individuals, we are bound to see issues from a unique and different viewpoint.
Because we have different viewpoints, we need a government to organize the thoughts of the people and make careful analysis of cause / effect while making laws to create a orderly society.
Not having a government is a very unwise decision, people will interpret things differently and have no consistant response towards actions that may be ok with one set of people and wrong with another.
This has the potential to lead to bloodshed or worse.

Exposure to more education is very good for the public, I don't disagree, however delegating to machines is a faulty premise.
Machines are a tool to help make informed decisions, not do the work for us.
Since we the people program the machines, it is fallible.
Ergo we must never relie on machines to do the important work that comes with making decisions.
Machines are only as capable as the one who programmed it.
It is far from a perfect system and should not be completely relied on to make our decisions.

There is simply no point to having a government if an entire population is exposed to relevant general education, because, the more you know, you are less prone to being manipulated/used, are capable of governing yourself, and can even think in a critical capacity along with being a problem solver (industrial education as we have it now does NOT expose you to generalized information in all fields that is actually IMPORTANT, nor does it prompt people to think critically or be problem solvers).
Politicians and bureaucrats are useless - they are NOT problem-solvers.
They don't create change - they mostly serve to perpetuate the status quo and keep things as they are.
They 'might' make some token changes in an existing system, but that is nothing more than 'patching' or 'treating the symptoms', whereas the underlying cause is never addressed, hence we end up with even bigger or that much more problems down the road.
I agree, relevant general education will make everybody smarter / wiser / informed / less likedly to be tricked / able to think critically / etc.
Current Politicians / Bureaucrats are useless because they exist only to sustain themselves and their self interest.
The current political systems in most governments have been manipulated into making rules that protect the politicians into letting them get away with lots of obviously corrupt actions.
Ergo campaign financing is ok in the form of donations from corporations / inviduals which are obviously bribes.
Fundamental rules about how a government position needs to behave, how they work for qualifying for any position, how campaigning should work, how lobbying should work, how terms should work, etc all need to be re-written so that there is no way they can do things for self gain.
They need to be rewritten so that they are only answerable to their constiuents.

But as with my comments on the previous question, there always needs to be a government IMO.
Just not the current form of government with it's current rules.
A new form of Constitutional Representative Democracy mixed in with Direct Democracy along with new forms of checks and balances need to be installed IMO.
Anything that is a direct port of an existing government is not ok IMO, every aspect of Government would need to be analyzed for weaknesses in forms of how you can corrupt the people / system and rules placed to limit such corruption.
The system must be constently checked / revised / updated to limit / prevent corruption for the benefit of the people / country.

Genes are responsible for physical traits.
I agree that Gene's are responsible for physical traits.

Behavior is environmental - starting from the early stages while we develop in the womb.
And while Humans might be born with certain 'tendencies', whether or not those tendencies manifest depends on the environment you grow up in, along with information/knowledge you are exposed to.
I generally agree on this.
Behavior IMO is mostly environmental, but certain personality tendencies are genetic, it's a small factor, but it's there.
Doesn't mean you can't change as a person or cancel out your genetic pre-disposition, I know I did for a fact.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:17 PM   #36
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Deks wrote: View Post
Oh I know that Humans are multi-dimensional, but that doesn't mean that people will turn to anarchy without a government, that things will intricately fall apart that (or that society couldn't function without one).
In small populations of probably 4 digits or less worth of people, lack of government might work without much of a hitch.
However when you get into billions to quadrillions when you have a country as big as the UFP, conflict based on differing opinion will occur.
Anything short of mass brainwashing, you're bound to have conflicting opinions.
Government's purpose is to give focus and drive the people in a specific direction for the benefit of the people / country.

The reason governments worked in the past and today is because the general population was not 'educated' properly.
Education today is limited to industrialization for the purpose of following orders, getting a job, and contributing to the economy like a 'good little consumer'.

Exposure to relevant general education of the global population would eliminate governments and people in positions of power due to the individual's ability to contemplate notions in a variety of subjects and think critically without being subjected to 'take the word of a governing body' (which interestingly enough almost always distorts information to suit the vested interests in the present system).

When you live in an advanced setting, your decision making is also bound to be switched over to machines (I already gave examples of how this has already been happening in reality on an increasing basis in previous posts).
The only reason Star Trek never went that far is because they wanted to create a show that was 'relate-able' to the audience.
I've already covered the education topic in my previous post.
I generally agree with you Deks, so I'll leave that alone.

I've already mentioned my thoughts on machines in my previous posts, so I will no regurgitate.

As far as ST being 'relate-able', yes there is that, but it also probably stems from Gene's View Point along with any of the other creative staff that brought in contributions.

Ergo a Constitutional Representative Democracy is the government structure they use to represent the UFP.
The way the government is structured is what I don't agree with.
The creative staff didn't put enough thought into creating a government that has the least likely system to prevent corruption.
If there is a future series, there would need to be change to the rules / structure of the UFP government that needs to be covered IMO.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:35 PM   #37
Brainsucker
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

thank you for your commenting all. But now I realized that "this kind of Perfect Government" and "less human behavior is actually possible in the world of Trek. But don't think that I will give the credit to human. No, humanity changed not because they realized their mistake after WWIII. The reason is too naive.

I think, the most logical reason is that because they are being exposed to many Alien cultures. Look at us, we love to copy other people behavior. So, what prevent us to mimicking Vulcan?

Come on, who can resist Vulcan? Look at them. Even with nerd hair cut and naive eyes, Vulcan is actually a bad ass. They can kick their enemy around with only touch their shoulder. And they clever like hell. No human children could win a science competition against Vulcan. That's why Vulcan can become the role model of some people.

And because they interact closely for more than three centuries, it is possible that some human has become more "Vulcan" than their ancestor. I think, it is the most possible answer for this problem.

Why human is so weak and easily to exposed by more advanced cultural entity? We have some examples in real life. Look at Japanese. They are more American than their ancestor now. And not only them, there are a lot of cultural transfer and change of behaviors in our world. Some because of culture, other because of religion. That's why the human in 24th century is also exposed and maybe influenced by the foreign culture, like Vulcan, or Klingon, or Romulan, or the others. It is a natural way of life in our universe.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:42 PM   #38
Deks
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

One thing I might have neglected to mention about a society without government is that it can work if its automated to a large degree (or should I say, a Cybernated society).
We shouldn't be afraid of technology (this fear mainly stems from the idiotic Hollywood movies written by people who have little to no understanding of how technology actually works).
We aren't infallible, yes... BUT, we also don't make our technology for betterment of everyone, nor are we creating it to LAST (to not break down).
Planned obsolescence is intricately designed into the current system because it drives profits... other than that, we've known for a LONG time how to make technology that requires little to no maintenance and doesn't break down.
We already have machines that build other machines, that are self-maintaining, etc...

Machinery/robotics/computers SHOULD be used to do 'the dirty work'.
We also delegate decision making to machines in exactly the manner that you described... to arrive at informed decisions - however, this is expanding at a large rate to other areas.

You don't need governments to organize thoughts.
Governments CANNOT represent EVERY person on the planet because there are simply too many people who think for themselves and have their own ways of thinking.
Governments can only generalize - and with people in positions of power, you ALWAYS create a setting that is subject to 'power grabs' (regardless of how 'noble' an individual may be).

To create a system without government, you'd need global communications... which we already have had for some time (though it would require some minor modification to allow for direct democracy of sorts).
If you would like something done, you can set up a proposal in an area you wanted it to be made, and see how the people in that area will react.
How will this benefit their lives or influence the environment, and is it sustainable - those are the kinds of questions that people should be asking.
People don't need governments to voice what they need/want be done... they can do that themselves.
And once the global population is exposed to relevant general education, along to notions of sustainability - their behavior will quite likely change as a result.

As for power grabbing behavior... as I said earlier, that kind of behavior is not generated out of nowhere - it needs an environment that prompts this kind of thinking and has a setting where it is actually possible.

In a cybernated society... this kind of behavior would be extremely unlikely to manifest (especially if its NOT encouraged)... and even if it did, there would be no 'power' for anyone to grab a hold of.
Imposing ones will onto another is a behavior based on the present-socio economic system that prompts notions of 'ownership'.
Access abundance (or a system of on-demand usership) could easily do away with 'ownership' type of behavior.

The transitional period to a resource based economy in the real world WOULD require a government an usage of money - but only for a limited amount of time (about 10 years) - after which, both would be dissolved intentionally (as it would be known its only temporary).

The only reason Trek decided to keep governments (and other things that still exist) and superimpose them to the Federation, is because its something 'relate-able' to the viewers.
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Last edited by Deks; December 18 2012 at 12:53 PM.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:52 PM   #39
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Brainsucker wrote: View Post
thank you for your commenting all. But now I realized that "this kind of Perfect Government" and "less human behavior is actually possible in the world of Trek. But don't think that I will give the credit to human. No, humanity changed not because they realized their mistake after WWIII. The reason is too naive.

I think, the most logical reason is that because they are being exposed to many Alien cultures. Look at us, we love to copy other people behavior. So, what prevent us to mimicking Vulcan?

Come on, who can resist Vulcan? Look at them. Even with nerd hair cut and naive eyes, Vulcan is actually a bad ass. They can kick their enemy around with only touch their shoulder. And they clever like hell. No human children could win a science competition against Vulcan. That's why Vulcan can become the role model of some people.

And because they interact closely for more than three centuries, it is possible that some human has become more "Vulcan" than their ancestor. I think, it is the most possible answer for this problem.

Why human is so weak and easily to exposed by more advanced cultural entity? We have some examples in real life. Look at Japanese. They are more American than their ancestor now. And not only them, there are a lot of cultural transfer and change of behaviors in our world. Some because of culture, other because of religion. That's why the human in 24th century is also exposed and maybe influenced by the foreign culture, like Vulcan, or Klingon, or Romulan, or the others. It is a natural way of life in our universe.
Just curious is English your primary language?

I wouldn't give Vulcan's that much credit, sure they open our eyes, but even in ST:ENT, they clearly stated humanity changed itself after "First Contact" happened.
Vulcan's were a inspiration as to what is capable for a civiliation / species potential.
However, the change happened because humanity was determined to improve so they can move on past all the old problems and deal with new issues regarding space exploration and the possibility of spreading human kind into the stars.
All Human's on Earth would have learned that it needed to not place it's species all on 1 planet after WW3, ergo fixing basic problems and readying themselves for colonization would be a huge priority for the human race.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:14 PM   #40
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Deks wrote: View Post
One thing I might have neglected to mention about a society without government is that it can work if its automated to a large degree (or should I say, a Cybernated society).
We shouldn't be afraid of technology (this fear mainly stems from the idiotic Hollywood movies written by people who have little to no understanding of how technology actually works).
We aren't infallible, yes... BUT, we also don't make our technology for betterment of everyone, nor are we creating it to LAST (to not break down).
Planned obsolescence is intricately designed into the current system because it drives profits... other than that, we've known for a LONG time how to make technology that requires little to no maintenance and doesn't break down.
We already have machines that build other machines, that are self-maintaining, etc...

Machinery/robotics/computers SHOULD be used to do 'the dirty work'.
We also delegate decision making to machines in exactly the manner that you described... to arrive at informed decisions - however, this is expanding at a large rate to other areas.

You don't need governments to organize thoughts.
Governments CANNOT represent EVERY person on the planet because there are simply too many people who think for themselves and have their own ways of thinking.
Governments can only generalize - and with people in positions of power, you ALWAYS create a setting that is subject to 'power grabs' (regardless of how 'noble' an individual may be).

To create a system without government, you'd need global communications... which we already have had for some time (though it would require some minor modification to allow for direct democracy of sorts).
If you would like something done, you can set up a proposal in an area you wanted it to be made, and see how the people in that area will react.
How will this benefit their lives or influence the environment, and is it sustainable - those are the kinds of questions that people should be asking.
People don't need governments to voice what they need/want be done... they can do that themselves.
And once the global population is exposed to relevant general education, along to notions of sustainability - their behavior will quite likely change as a result.

As for power grabbing behavior... as I said earlier, that kind of behavior is not generated out of nowhere - it needs an environment that prompts this kind of thinking and has a setting where it is actually possible.

In a cybernated society... this kind of behavior would be extremely unlikely to manifest (especially if its NOT encouraged)... and even if it did, there would be no 'power' for anyone to grab a hold of.
Imposing ones will onto another is a behavior based on the present-socio economic system that prompts notions of 'ownership'.
Access abundance (or a system of on-demand usership) could easily do away with 'ownership' type of behavior.

The transitional period to a resource based economy in the real world WOULD require a government an usage of money - but only for a limited amount of time (about 10 years) - after which, both would be dissolved intentionally (as it would be known its only temporary).

The only reason Trek decided to keep governments (and other things that still exist) and superimpose them to the Federation, is because its something 'relate-able' to the viewers.
I agree technology will be used to help humanity, just not to automate decision making when it comes to governing people. There are way too many things that can fall through the cracks with that kind of thinking.

I agree that most technology is made with planned obsolescence, but even the most durable of products will eventually break from regular wear and tear. That is a fact of all technology. Nothing is indestructable or unbreakable. Everything will break, it's just a matter of time, wear, stress, etc.

I agree, machines should be doing most of the "Dirty Work". That's the only efficient way for our society to improve.
Imagine how much better FOXCONN would be if they got rid of all their chinese slave labor for robot automation.
The sheer consistancy / quality improvement from that alone would be huge.
Now if they wouldn't skimp on design / materials, but that is a different problem to solve.

You don't need government to organize thoughts.
However not everybody is going to care to participate either whether out of apathy or lack of time to invest in a subject matter.
Of course you can't represent everybody's opinion.
Not everybody will submit their opinions either.
Representative democracy is there so that hopefully the guy you voted in / won will represent the will of the majority of his constituents, whether or not that happens in reality is a whole different problem.
Government is supposed to make rules to solve a problem that majorly affects society.
Current government is far from that.

In your view, everybody would be connected via the internet and spend their days discussing everything until something had to be done.
Sounds like way too much talking and not enough doing IMO.
The problem with everybody contributing is that there will be too many cooks in the kitchen.
Even with the most well rounded / educated / critical thinking people, this problem of too many differing view points will happen.
Direct Democracy may not work if it's just pure voting on the internet on a subject.
There will always be the issue of somebody rigging the votes and switching out what is the real vote count and what the results are.
Anytime there are hidden votes, this classic con of "Two sets of books" will always be a problem.
If you keep votes open, especially on the net, it will lead to influencing of others.
Keeping count of millions of votes openly on the net will also be problematic.
What government should be doing is creating rules that everybody can abide by and leave all the minutiae(sp?) of everyday life to the people.

I've seen people power grab even if they were raised in the best of environments.
I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you Deks on that issue.
Power Grab will always be an issue, no matter the environment.
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Old December 18 2012, 01:37 PM   #41
Deks
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
I've seen people power grab even if they were raised in the best of environments.
Power Grab will always be an issue, no matter the environment.
Hm... I think I realize what you are getting at... however, let's try to examine that:

Being raised in an environment that DOESN'T prompt you to pursue power grabbing is only 1 step.
Those who did grow up like that but eventually decided to 'grab power' probably did so because they were eventually encouraged to change enough so that they would 'seize power' due to the system they lived in (the present socio-economic system).

See... having 'noble' people is not enough.
You need to design a system that actively removes the possibility of ANYONE 'grabbing power' and discourages such behavior (via education - no force or 'indoctrination' necessary).

If you don't, well, like I said, Human behavior can change, and in the present setting it changes to accommodate the existing socio-economic system if an opportunity presents itself (because that's the kind of thinking society at large promotes).
This is why a TRANSITIONAL period is required. A temporary setting that would allow Humanity to adjust which would do away with the old system automatically at the end of the 10 years time-frame (providing there's a global push to initiate this change - however, Humanity is already in a transition period of sorts).

Lack of relevant general education is a big factor here as well that cannot be disregarded.
Most 'noble' people who change for the worse later on were never exposed to that and in combination with the present socio-economic system, its a rather 'easy' recipe for disaster because they allowed themselves to be used by others and the system they live in.

The notion that there would be 'too many cooks' as it seems is a bit of an assumption.
Seeing how most of the construction will be delegated to machines and most everything would be automated... ideas proposed by Humans would be taken and compared with existing models. The less viable ones are discarded or simply put on the side to see if they can be combined with the more viable ones to create a better solution.
A computerized system would have to do it seeing how the process would be WAY too complex for Humans (computers have already surpassed Humans a long time ago in the department of specialized tasks) - in the end, whether we allow final construction to be made is up to us - which is why any given community or self-sustaining city would arrive at such decisions. Putting the entire globe into whether or not to construct it in a local area is not necessary (apart from how to possibly improve upon the ideas).

As for technology 'eventually breaking down' - as I said, self-maintaining machines and machines that make other machines already exist - all of which would render this issue mostly moot.

We can make technology materials that are practically next to indestructible, that will last for 'absurd amounts of time' and can be made in abundance.
We can DESIGN technology to eliminate most, if not all stress related factors that contribute to degradation in the first place, and automated processes would simply recycle older machines by harvesting their materials and created superior machines (software/hardware that improves on itself).

Perhaps there's a possibility that it won't last until the end of time itself (if such a thing even exists), but it can certainly be designed to last absurdly long.
Add enough safe-guards to take care of most of these issues and most of the 'problems' are rendered moot.
We ARE talking about 'sustainability' after all.

In the end... I do agree with most of your ideas KamenRiderBlade and way of thinking.
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Old December 18 2012, 03:47 PM   #42
Brainsucker
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

KamenRiderBlade wrote: View Post
Brainsucker wrote: View Post
thank you for your commenting all. But now I realized that "this kind of Perfect Government" and "less human behavior is actually possible in the world of Trek. But don't think that I will give the credit to human. No, humanity changed not because they realized their mistake after WWIII. The reason is too naive.

I think, the most logical reason is that because they are being exposed to many Alien cultures. Look at us, we love to copy other people behavior. So, what prevent us to mimicking Vulcan?

Come on, who can resist Vulcan? Look at them. Even with nerd hair cut and naive eyes, Vulcan is actually a bad ass. They can kick their enemy around with only touch their shoulder. And they clever like hell. No human children could win a science competition against Vulcan. That's why Vulcan can become the role model of some people.

And because they interact closely for more than three centuries, it is possible that some human has become more "Vulcan" than their ancestor. I think, it is the most possible answer for this problem.

Why human is so weak and easily to exposed by more advanced cultural entity? We have some examples in real life. Look at Japanese. They are more American than their ancestor now. And not only them, there are a lot of cultural transfer and change of behaviors in our world. Some because of culture, other because of religion. That's why the human in 24th century is also exposed and maybe influenced by the foreign culture, like Vulcan, or Klingon, or Romulan, or the others. It is a natural way of life in our universe.
Just curious is English your primary language?

I wouldn't give Vulcan's that much credit, sure they open our eyes, but even in ST:ENT, they clearly stated humanity changed itself after "First Contact" happened.
Vulcan's were a inspiration as to what is capable for a civiliation / species potential.
However, the change happened because humanity was determined to improve so they can move on past all the old problems and deal with new issues regarding space exploration and the possibility of spreading human kind into the stars.
All Human's on Earth would have learned that it needed to not place it's species all on 1 planet after WW3, ergo fixing basic problems and readying themselves for colonization would be a huge priority for the human race.
I said that I'm Asian, isn't it? so English is basically not my primary language.

I doubt that the reason is like that. It's too idealistic. Almost impossible to be realized. Exposed or influenced by the outside worlds is more "logical" and do-able. If you are Asian, then you should know that some of Asian countries are influenced by other culture. You can see at some of Islamic Countries like Indonesia. They are more Arabian than Indonesian, just because they are influenced by the religion. It is also happen to Japan. Look at them before the Meiji Restoration and then look the different after they take western culture.

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Old December 18 2012, 04:46 PM   #43
Deks
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Religion was invented by Humanity.
So... species-wise, that particular influence was/is internal.

As such, there is nothing 'idealistic' about a non-monetary society that implements cybernation and automation as much as possible coupled with relevant general education of the entire global population.
It's merely a different way of thinking that could result in a world that is FAR better than what we have now (but it wouldn't be 'perfect' or a 'utopia' because such concepts are delusions).

Star Trek merely decided to go the 'culturally accepted' route and tell you that nothing short of violence and exposure to alien life (or fear of it) could change our way of thinking (again... a byproduct of a system that creates film-makers who know next to nothing about Human behavior or how technology works) - a similar thing happened in the movie 4th of July (which was a joke in itself).

Denying the premise that we can create this change on our own simply because the present socio-economic system creates a perception that anything else 'won't work' (even though various implementations of holistic methodology on a smaller scale demonstrate its possible and needs proper scaling to accommodate the globe coupled with other factors) is quite frankly, a cop-out... an easy way to 'give up'.
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Old December 18 2012, 09:06 PM   #44
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Brainsucker wrote: View Post
I said that I'm Asian, isn't it? so English is basically not my primary language.

I doubt that the reason is like that. It's too idealistic. Almost impossible to be realized. Exposed or influenced by the outside worlds is more "logical" and do-able. If you are Asian, then you should know that some of Asian countries are influenced by other culture. You can see at some of Islamic Countries like Indonesia. They are more Arabian than Indonesian, just because they are influenced by the religion. It is also happen to Japan. Look at them before the Meiji Restoration and then look the different after they take western culture.
I'm Asian, and English is my primary language, that's why I asked.
As far as religion goes, I think people will be less affected by religion as more general and relevant education gets spread around.
IMO, as long as better education and critical thinking goes, people will eventually end up like a Star Trek future where religion is a foot note in human history.
Most people who I've met that are highly intelligent and critical thinking tend to sway away from religion and influence others to think past most typical religious borders.
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Old December 18 2012, 09:21 PM   #45
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: A country without Money how it's work?

Deks wrote: View Post
Religion was invented by Humanity.
So... species-wise, that particular influence was/is internal.

As such, there is nothing 'idealistic' about a non-monetary society that implements cybernation and automation as much as possible coupled with relevant general education of the entire global population.
It's merely a different way of thinking that could result in a world that is FAR better than what we have now (but it wouldn't be 'perfect' or a 'utopia' because such concepts are delusions).

Star Trek merely decided to go the 'culturally accepted' route and tell you that nothing short of violence and exposure to alien life (or fear of it) could change our way of thinking (again... a byproduct of a system that creates film-makers who know next to nothing about Human behavior or how technology works) - a similar thing happened in the movie 4th of July (which was a joke in itself).

Denying the premise that we can create this change on our own simply because the present socio-economic system creates a perception that anything else 'won't work' (even though various implementations of holistic methodology on a smaller scale demonstrate its possible and needs proper scaling to accommodate the globe coupled with other factors) is quite frankly, a cop-out... an easy way to 'give up'.
The main problem I see with your system from the Venus Project is that it takes away alot of free will.
A pre determined city has no room for people to build homes / businesses as they desire.
People won't be allowed to buy cars since there will be no cars.
People will have to use public transportation or walk.
Not everybody will be inclined to want to do things this way.
Your Venus Project would work if everybody willingly or by gun point goes along with it, but it feels like it's far from a perfect system.

What you have to give up to attain such a system is saddening IMO and most humans would never give such things up.
The option to have an automobile of my choice.
The option to have a house of my design.
The free will to create a store at a location of my choice and in a building of my choice.

Most people don't like being told what to do.
I'm one of those people.

I agree, having green technology is the way to go.

But destroying existing cities to do it is not the way to go.

Places like Las Vegas "The Strip"
Places like Hollywood Blvd.
All unique places in each city that make it interesting.
The venus project proposes to make domed nearly identical or very similar cities.
People would get bored of their city very fast.
The psychological factors from everything being the same would be very bad on humanity.
There is a reason why some people like moving to different cities, it's because it is a different environment / atmosphere that they can feel happy in.
To take away that aspect would harm a significant population of humanity in the name of progress.

True progress has to co-exist with certain existing aspects of humanity.
People do not take kindly when their vested rights as people get trampled.
I agree that if every house on Earth had solar / wind / other renewable features along with advance concrete construction, the sheer amount of energy consumption would drop.
One green way of storing energy is to use flywheel batteries.
Flywheel batteries have been around for a while and they don't leave toxic by products and have ~20+ year life times with newer designs getting better and better.
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