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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old December 7 2012, 02:48 PM   #31
anh165
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

I think that war in the DS9 series did the Federation good in terms of economy, it allowed them to get rid of old knackered 80 year old 23rd century starships without having to go through the expense of scrapping them.
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Old December 7 2012, 06:44 PM   #32
EmperorTiberius
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Perhaps they can convert matter into energy and vice versa but it would take incredible amount of power, too inefficient. We already know that regular replicating can take too much resources. There is that episode in TNG where Enterprise had to drop out of warp to replicate something.
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Old December 7 2012, 07:32 PM   #33
T'Girl
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

^^^ Containment vessels for hundreds of deadly diseases, the replicator consumed to much power for hours for the warp drive to be used at the same time. They didn't drop out of warp, as could not go into warp in the first place.

And in the episode Night Terrors (?), power cuts precluded the replicator use to produce an explosive chemical.

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Old December 7 2012, 07:55 PM   #34
EmperorTiberius
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
^^^ Containment vessels for hundreds of deadly diseases, the replicator consumed to much power for hours for the warp drive to be used at the same time. They didn't drop out of warp, as could not go into warp in the first place.

And in the episode Night Terrors (?), power cuts precluded the replicator use to produce an explosive chemical.

Yeah that's the one.

Think about what you're doing when replicating. I'm no physicist, but wouldn't you have to deal with tremendous strong and weak forces to do what they do? Then have teh computer memory to map everything.
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Old December 8 2012, 05:10 AM   #35
Ian Keldon
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Either way, the point is that the Federation's production capacity in the core worlds was so vast and so distributed that their economy was basically more than capable of functioning well even during the Dominion War. Their problems were limited to large, highly complex items like ships and manpower shortages on the battleline.
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Old December 10 2012, 12:34 PM   #36
Timo
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Containment vessels for hundreds of deadly diseases
It would appear that there's a theme of forcefield containment going on with things that are difficult to replicate. We also learn that photon torpedo warheads are easier to steal from a Starfleet facility than to replicate at home...

Possibly the difficulty of replicating intricate forcefield machinery is what's keeping Commander Maddox from producing a dozen Datas to vivisect, or Starfleet from creating starships at the push of a button? It might be something they can do (since there's nothing the transporter explicitly couldn't do), but won't, because of the complexity and thus the time or other expense required?

The difficult replicating of explosives wouldn't quite fit that picture. But in "Night Terrors", the power shortage aboard the ship was particularly severe. Or at least the loss of propulsion was quite total, even though nothing indicated that the anomaly of the week was actually grabbing the heroes. It simply seemed as if they had lost the power to fire up their engines, even the feeblest ones. Which is a bit inconsistent with them being able to consider a deflector dish burst as a means of escape... But apparently the issue is the rift eating up all output power, even if there's lots of energy in the reserves. If it eats things as diverse as propulsive power and deflector output, then it could eat replication energies, too, and we'd learn nothing much about the normal capabilities and limitations of the replicator.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 12 2012, 01:15 AM   #37
Brainsucker
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Then we all agree that replicator has limitation.
According to "Yesterday Enterprise" in TNG, the warship version of Galaxy Class uses ration instead of replicator just because the energy of the ship is being used to empower weapons and shields.

So..., blockade still work in this "Star Trek World". A colony that being siege by Dominion would suffer starvation. Because with the limitation of the replicator, they shouldn't be able to replace immediately "The planetary power supply" if they are all being bombed and destroyed by Dominion Fleet. Plus with the war, they would use the energy to empower the phaser and shield rather than replicator, thus the people would relied on food ration instead.

So... my conclusion is still the same. It is either plot hole or the Dominion War is actually not as big as we think.
Well, I understand that I'm being stubborn. I know that you all have give your opinion and I'm very grateful for that. And telling a stubborn man like me will exhausted your energy into nothing. So I'm apology for that.

Last edited by Brainsucker; December 12 2012 at 01:25 AM.
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Old December 18 2012, 04:41 AM   #38
brian577
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Deks wrote: View Post
Most of what Federation ships use for construction is Duranium for the hull.
I would surmise that these materials would have to be reproducible as a synthetic substance in abundance.
Dilithium crystals might be the only thing needed that cannot be synthesized... but we don't know for sure whether the Federation was able to create synthetic dilithium crystals by the 24th century.
We do know they also need Deuterium for 'fuel' (which really doesn't make any sense - but the stuff is basically 'everywhere' and it would be rather idiotic that a culture as advanced as the Federation wouldn't be able to synthesize it artificially).
The Feds can employ a number of highly sophisticated technology in the late 24th century even during war-times.
Actually in the DS9 episode Penumbra it was stated that the Galamites were supplying the Federation with Duranium. It would seem the war was so bad that the Federation had to rely on allies to provide them with raw materials.
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Old December 18 2012, 09:12 AM   #39
Deks
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

brian577 wrote: View Post
Actually in the DS9 episode Penumbra it was stated that the Galamites were supplying the Federation with Duranium. It would seem the war was so bad that the Federation had to rely on allies to provide them with raw materials.
Doesn't that strike you as poor writing?
To rely on any 1 species or source for something as vital as ship construction materials in the face of highly advanced technology that is basically integrated EVERYWHERE and is capable of creating practically anything is utterly unsustainable.
Ship construction materials would have to be made from readily available superior synthetic materials that can be made in abundance using the least amount of energy and resources... especially if we are talking about sustainability (let alone a war which was EXPECTED even).

I find it highly improbable, that they were never able to analyze the material and make a synthetic version - plus the material is NOT new.

Besides... Voyager constructed the second Delta Flyer which had a Duranium enforced hull (the first version had a Tetraburnium alloy that allowed the ship to withstand heavy atmoshperic pressure).
If Voyager was able to construct that ship at a spur of a thought and synthesize these materials (which they had to), the raw materials needed would have to be readily available in their environment (almost any given environment) that can be turned into synthetic Duranium, or Duranium is already replicable from energy alone (although granted, Voyager also could have traded with other races to get Duranium... if not the raw materials needed for its making).
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Last edited by Deks; December 18 2012 at 09:45 AM.
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Old December 18 2012, 10:56 AM   #40
Timo
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

The Federation would have long experience with single-source raw materials by that point, and might have found ways to cope. Kirk was always securing unique sources of absolutely vital substances: pergium, topaline, zenite, even dilithium had to be pried from the hands of foreigners or greedy entrepreneurs rather than obtained from state-controlled sources.

Of course, such sources were never truly unique. The substances were merely specified as being rare and difficult to obtain; Kirk's efforts would have been aimed at broadening an already existing acquisition base. The same probably goes for the Gallamite duranium shipments.

Moving some production abroad might be a smart move during a conflict, really, even when shipping connections are in jeopardy. Distribution gives survivability, and the enemy might not want to expand the conflict to the incidental allies of its opponent quite yet.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 18 2012, 11:37 AM   #41
T'Girl
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Deks wrote: View Post
... it would be rather idiotic that a culture as advanced as the Federation wouldn't be able to ...
While the Federation is advanced to a certain degree, they obviously are not as advanced as you seem to be assuming they are.

Face it Deks, there are limits to their technology.

Deuterium ... synthesize it artificially
Synthesize mean combining a number of things into a single whole. Deuterium is a single atom to start with.

Deuterium ... the stuff is basically 'everywhere'
0.0156% of all hydrogen is deuterium. You have to go though over 6.4 thousand litres of naturally occurring hydrogen to separate out 1 litre of pure deuterium.

Duranium ... made from readily available superior synthetic materials that can be made in abundance using the least amount of energy and resources
The Galamites might possess a indusrtial process to produce duranium that the Federation completely lacks, or it's less expensive than the Federation's method. So the Galamites produce it, ship it across interstellar space, and sell it to the Federation.

If Voyager was able to construct that ship at a spur of a thought and synthesize these materials
Given the relative size difference between the Voyager and the Delta Flyer, and the proven utility of the Flyer, have you concidered the possibility that they simply stripped a few tonnes of duranium out of the Voyager's own hull?

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Old December 18 2012, 12:13 PM   #42
Deks
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
While the Federation is advanced to a certain degree, they obviously are not as advanced as you seem to be assuming they are.

Face it Deks, there are limits to their technology
Limits yes, but not of THAT kind of variety.
Or are you also forgetting how writers in Trek were notorious of creating ludicrous technology and resources in one episode (which was established as possible with the knowledge/technology at the Federation disposal) only to be forgotten in another for the purpose of 'drama'?

Synthesize mean combining a number of things into a single whole. Deuterium is a single atom to start with.

0.0156% of all hydrogen is deuterium. You have to go though over 6.4 thousand litres of naturally occurring hydrogen to separate out 1 litre of pure deuterium.
And how many litres of Deuterium is actually needed to run a ship?
Is 'pure' Deuterium also required, or is it also diluted to large levels?
The Federation would likely have other sources of matter from which Deuterium could be synthesized in abundance - and also, they WOULD be aiming for sustainability and maximum efficiency... which means, least amount of energy and resource expenditure.
Time might be a factor if they are in a hurry which would prompt finding naturally formed deuterium, but otherwise, I see no reason why time-consuming processes wouldn't be used for creating the synthetic variant - and we don't know if the Federation predominantly uses synthetic or natural deuterium.

The Galamites might possess a indusrtial process to produce duranium that the Federation completely lacks, or it's less expensive than the Federation's method. So the Galamites produce it, ship it across interstellar space, and sell it to the Federation.
Does not make sense.
Federation ships were in service for a LONG time, and even in the era of NX-01, Duranium was the choice of materials for ships hulls.
I find it utterly idiotic that the only source of this material or methods of production is available to the Galamites, because SF had been in existence for 200 years, and have been using the said material for as long.

Realistically, they would have to be pretty stupid to not be able to make a synthetic version of their own with identical if not FAR superior properties using the least amount of energy and materials in the process - after 200 years no less.

Given the relative size difference between the Voyager and the Delta Flyer, and the proven utility of the Flyer, have you considered the possibility that they simply stripped a few tonnes of duranium out of the Voyager's own hull?
I find it very unlikely the crew would use Voyager's own hull for that.
A Federation ship such as Voyager (or even a tiny Nova class) has the necessary tools/technology to be fully self-sufficient indefinitely and would likely be able to create the necessary materials they depend on given enough time.
Artificially imposed limitation from the writers is a well known 'drama factor'.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:20 PM   #43
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

"The nucleus of deuterium, called a deuteron, contains one proton and one neutron, whereas the far more common hydrogen isotope, protium, has no neutron in the nucleus."
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Old December 18 2012, 12:22 PM   #44
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

The Galamites might possess a indusrtial process to produce duranium that the Federation completely lacks, or it's less expensive than the Federation's method. So the Galamites produce it, ship it across interstellar space, and sell it to the Federation.
Or the Federation might be consuming Duranium faster then they can replicate / produce given wartime energy levels.

Ergo getting a outside source is very beneficial to keeping manufacturing / repairs at full capacity.
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Old December 18 2012, 12:23 PM   #45
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: How could the Dominion War doesn't effect the economy of Federatio

Given the relative size difference between the Voyager and the Delta Flyer, and the proven utility of the Flyer, have you concidered the possibility that they simply stripped a few tonnes of duranium out of the Voyager's own hull?
They'd probably just replicate the duranium or process it from a natural ore site.

There's no sense in taking it from your own ship that needs it.
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