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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 15 2012, 06:31 PM   #136
R. Star
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Re: Insurrection

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


er, why would they?

It would basically be like a civil war in the case of the Baku vs. the Son'a, which the Federation frowns on getting involved in.(remember Picard's "blood feud" comment?)

And why would the UFP offer protection to the Baku when they would benefit much more greatly from the Son'a removing them? Especially since the Baku have nothing to offer the UFP.
Because good people don't only help those they can profit from.
But helping the Ba'ku with what even Picard calls a blood feud violates the Prime Directive every bit as much as interfering with a primitive society would.

Once again, you can't pick and choose how to apply a rule on a case-by-case basis. Either the Federation is forbidden from interfering in a society's internal affairs or their not.

Which is it going to be?
Except from it's very concept, the Prime Directive has been selectively applied. Some times I think it's just a dubiously worded Machiavellian scheme to give the Federation the moral high ground in any given conflict they chose to or not to get involved in.
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Old December 15 2012, 06:36 PM   #137
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
I don't agree that "good people" would want to help the Baku. The Baku showed every sign of being selfish, self-absorbed, and closed-minded.
I see nothing of that in the film. They weren't even asked. They were spied on, they were lied to, they were attacked, and then they were about to be murdered, all for a luxury item that, in the wrong hands, can also be greatly misused.

I personally value life over luxury resources.

The Ba'ku are portrayed like the Amish, which is a choice of lifestyle I respect. If you want to live a life with all the pleasures of technology and modern society, you are free to do so, but you may not return. AND the Ba'ku DID NOT exile them from the entire planet. That is explicitly stated in the film when Picard talks to Dougherty in his ready room. That was the Son'a's choice alone, because they "didn't want to live in the Briar Patch".

The Son'a wanted to have both the cake and eat it, too, and were ready to harm others for that.


They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship, and they again tried to kill Data and Picard as soon as they rediscovered it. That's how secret and illegal the whole plan was.
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Old December 15 2012, 07:41 PM   #138
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship...
This is where it falls apart for me. Who in the hell is dumb enough to hide a spaceship with transporters in a fucking lake?

The whole set up of the film is so stupid it literally enrages me to think about it. It saddens me that this piece of shit was Michael Piller's Trek swan song.
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Old December 16 2012, 01:47 AM   #139
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Re: Insurrection

Especially when the thing has a cloaking device.
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Old December 16 2012, 04:45 PM   #140
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I don't agree that "good people" would want to help the Baku. The Baku showed every sign of being selfish, self-absorbed, and closed-minded.
I see nothing of that in the film. They weren't even asked. They were spied on, they were lied to, they were attacked, and then they were about to be murdered, all for a luxury item that, in the wrong hands, can also be greatly misused.

I personally value life over luxury resources.

The Ba'ku are portrayed like the Amish, which is a choice of lifestyle I respect. If you want to live a life with all the pleasures of technology and modern society, you are free to do so, but you may not return. AND the Ba'ku DID NOT exile them from the entire planet. That is explicitly stated in the film when Picard talks to Dougherty in his ready room. That was the Son'a's choice alone, because they "didn't want to live in the Briar Patch".

The Son'a wanted to have both the cake and eat it, too, and were ready to harm others for that.


They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship, and they again tried to kill Data and Picard as soon as they rediscovered it. That's how secret and illegal the whole plan was.

A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.
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Old December 16 2012, 04:50 PM   #141
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I don't agree that "good people" would want to help the Baku. The Baku showed every sign of being selfish, self-absorbed, and closed-minded.
I see nothing of that in the film. They weren't even asked. They were spied on, they were lied to, they were attacked, and then they were about to be murdered, all for a luxury item that, in the wrong hands, can also be greatly misused.

I personally value life over luxury resources.

The Ba'ku are portrayed like the Amish, which is a choice of lifestyle I respect. If you want to live a life with all the pleasures of technology and modern society, you are free to do so, but you may not return. AND the Ba'ku DID NOT exile them from the entire planet. That is explicitly stated in the film when Picard talks to Dougherty in his ready room. That was the Son'a's choice alone, because they "didn't want to live in the Briar Patch".

The Son'a wanted to have both the cake and eat it, too, and were ready to harm others for that.


They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship, and they again tried to kill Data and Picard as soon as they rediscovered it. That's how secret and illegal the whole plan was.

A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.
I wouldn't want anyone removed from their homes, harmed or killed to cure my cancer, no. I know it's tempting, but it's wrong.
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Old December 16 2012, 05:49 PM   #142
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Re: Insurrection

But it wouldn't just cure your cancer. It would cure cancer for millions. Is moving six hundred people such a bad thing for such a wide ranging benefit?

Would I have handled the relocation differently? Absolutely. Would I have relocated the Ba'ku to benefit billions? Absolutely.
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Old December 16 2012, 06:35 PM   #143
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Re: Insurrection

That's always been one of my biggest problems with the film. The "bad guys" are actually kind of in the right. It's ridiculous to pass up an opportunity to improve upon the quality of life for billions. They just went about it in the dumbest way possible. Also, they went about it in a way that completely goes against the character of Starfleet. They've moved/removed people before and were pretty much straightforward about it. Why change that now?
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Old December 16 2012, 09:21 PM   #144
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Re: Insurrection

Bishop76 wrote: View Post
That's always been one of my biggest problems with the film. The "bad guys" are actually kind of in the right.
I consider this to be one of the movie's strengths.

The evil "ugly" people are the ones who will improve the lives of billions, and the good "pretty" people are the ones who'll prevent this.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
They tried to kill Data ...
Not even the people inside the Federation universally consider Data to be a person. So not exactly "kill."

BillJ wrote: View Post
This is where it falls apart for me. Who in the hell is dumb enough to hide a spaceship with transporters in a fucking lake?
It was shown later in the movie to possess transporters, why not maintain it in orbit?

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Old December 16 2012, 10:39 PM   #145
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

I see nothing of that in the film. They weren't even asked. They were spied on, they were lied to, they were attacked, and then they were about to be murdered, all for a luxury item that, in the wrong hands, can also be greatly misused.

I personally value life over luxury resources.

The Ba'ku are portrayed like the Amish, which is a choice of lifestyle I respect. If you want to live a life with all the pleasures of technology and modern society, you are free to do so, but you may not return. AND the Ba'ku DID NOT exile them from the entire planet. That is explicitly stated in the film when Picard talks to Dougherty in his ready room. That was the Son'a's choice alone, because they "didn't want to live in the Briar Patch".

The Son'a wanted to have both the cake and eat it, too, and were ready to harm others for that.


They tried to kill Data as soon as he discovered the holoship, and they again tried to kill Data and Picard as soon as they rediscovered it. That's how secret and illegal the whole plan was.

A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.
I wouldn't want anyone removed from their homes, harmed or killed to cure my cancer, no. I know it's tempting, but it's wrong.

That's a personal choice for you, but if you really put "removal of a village from their homes" as a concern above "curing cancer for billions" then there's really no point in continuing this argument because your ethics are so different from mine that I don't really know how to bridge the gap.
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Old December 16 2012, 10:42 PM   #146
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Re: Insurrection

I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?
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Old December 16 2012, 11:09 PM   #147
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Re: Insurrection

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?
Yeah if the Baku really were as righteous and walked on water as the movie flatly attempts to portray them they would have just said, we'll move and let you use the planet's radiation to save those billions of lives. As it is they consider their immortality more important than billions of others.... and these are the people we're supposed to sympathize with?
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Old December 17 2012, 12:16 AM   #148
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Re: Insurrection

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?
I completely agree with you, but actually I still say that they shouldn't even really need to move. Just open the planet up to others while they have their land similar to a nation or something that is off limits to off-landers.
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Old December 17 2012, 12:20 AM   #149
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Re: Insurrection

los2188 wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
I also think the film cheats by not having the Baku give their opinion on the matter. They love the sanctity of life, so what would their thoughts be if leaving meant saving billions of lives out in the galaxy?
I completely agree with you, but actually I still say that they shouldn't even really need to move. Just open the planet up to others while they have their land similar to a nation or something that is off limits to off-landers.
But there's no way billions of people benefit from the radiation if they actually have to travel to the Briar Patch. And the effects wear off after you leave.
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Old December 17 2012, 12:46 AM   #150
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
A luxury item? Did you really refer to a medical resource that can re-grow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and greatly extend lifestyles a luxury item?


I suppose cures for diseases are luxury items, too in your view.
Do you mean in the Federation, where they can already regrow eyes for the blind, heal injuries, and extend the life of humans to two centuries?
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