Spock Lying

[Nerys Myk]

Sector 7 wrote:

---

Are you Vulcanian? You present a very logical argument.

He's lying.

[JimZipCode]

Noname Given wrote:

---

People who cite Spock's line from "The Enterprise Incident" as 'canon proof' that Vulcans don't lie are...

Are there really such idiots?

[Timo]

Well, Data is, sort of.

He'd probably make for an even more annoying Star Trek fan than the undersigned.

Timo Saloniemi

[JimZipCode]

Well, it's interesting. The Klingons in John M Ford's The Final Reflection (1984) are convinced that Vulcans cannot lie. At one point Krenn is wondering, "If it should be found that a Vulcan could lie..." It's an important subpoint – not a plot point exactly, since no plot events occur around it, but an important piece of setting that informs the presence of all the Vulcans in Klingon society.

But I don't think Ford is taking the position that it's actually true; but rather that Klingons think it's true, and it's part of their racial theorizing / master race / manifest destiny cosmology. And there is precedent in TOS for Federation enemies to think that, since the Romulan Commander in Enterprise Incident believes it too.

[Jonas Grumby]

JimZipCode wrote:

---

Are there really such idiots?

I have run into one or two fans who believe that anything said by any character in any context must be taken as literally and precisely true. They often have to disregard both storyline and characterization to do so, but still...

[Timo]

And there is precedent in TOS for Federation enemies to think that, since the Romulan Commander in Enterprise Incident believes it too.

One might say that many species are in awe of the Vulcan alienness - their frankly quite exceptional self-restraint, their scary mindmelding skills, their reputation as fierce fighters in the past, their no doubt fascinating sexual perversions. People who would consider a Bolian or an Andorian just a fellow member of their own species with a particularly ugly face, and not trust him beyond how much they'd trust their weird uncle or lazy son-in-law, would believe anything about Vulcans.

And it is logical to think that Romulans would have a particularly severe blind spot in this respect, as their propaganda machine would have been feeding them "Vulcan otherness" for at least two millennia already. They might look down on enemies in general, but after such overexposure, the intense "Vulcans are different" propaganda would backfire and make them look up on them.

Timo Saloniemi

[Greg Cox]

Jonas Grumby wrote:

---

I have run into one or two fans who believe that anything said by any character in any context must be taken as literally and precisely true. They often have to disregard both storyline and characterization to do so, but still...

It's not just a Trekkie thing. This was a perennial source of confusion in the Underworld series, where the Vampire Elders lie all the time about their history, backstory, mythology, etc. This often seemed to fly over the heads of some confused UW fans who took every declaration from Viktor or Marcus as gospel--even when the plot made it very clear that they were constantly rewriting history to suit their own purposes.

"But . . . but Marcus said that killing an Elder would cause all vampires to die. So why didn't Selene die when she killed Marcus?"

Er, because Marcus created that myth for his own protection, as explained mid-way through the second movie.

Trust me, I used to get letters . . .

[Ian Keldon]

Interestingly enough, Spock has a "get out of jail free" card where he can make a case for NOT lying to the Romulan commander about lying.

She says "There is an old saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans cannot lie...?"

Spock replies: "It is no myth..."

Technically speaking, he could make the case that he was saying: "It is not a myth that there is an old saying that 'Vulcans cannot lie'...", which would be literally true...just not answering her REAL question and letting her assume that he did.

By the way, another case of Spock lying is in "The Tholian Web" when he joins Bones in denying that they'd listened to Kirk's message tape.

Frankly, it is the case, IMO, that most of the "Vulcans are pacifists/vegetarians'[insert behavior preference x]" carries an implicit caveat of "generally speaking" and "by choice".

[Gary7]

Garrovick wrote:

---

Spock's human half definitely helped him to tell the occasional lie when the situation demaded. I can't imagine a full Vulcan, regardless of the stakes, telling Norman that logic is a little bird, chirping in a meadow, or that logic was a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad.

^ +1, QFT.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Well to be fair, that bit with Norman wasn't simply a lie, it was gibberish. Perhaps a full Vulcan could have found it logical to use such gibberish if it was for the specific purpose done in that episode.

[Athena28]

I never thought about the half human part re: lying. That could make sense.

[T'Girl]

Ian Keldon wrote:

---

She says "There is an old saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans cannot lie...?"

Spock replies: "It is no myth..."

Technically speaking, he could make the case that he was saying: "It is not a myth that there is an old saying that 'Vulcans cannot lie'...", which would be literally true...just not answering her REAL question and letting her assume that he did.

Or, Spock could be saying that while it is not a myth that Vulcans cannot lie, there is in fact an old saying about Vulcan being incapable of lying.

Spock said nothing about the veracity of the old saying, one way or the other.

[Timo]

..."It is no myth" = "It's a total sham", perhaps?

Timo Saloniemi

[Ian Keldon]

Merry Christmas wrote:

---

Or, Spock could be saying that while it is not a myth that Vulcans cannot lie, there is in fact an old saying about Vulcan being incapable of lying.

Spock said nothing about the veracity of the old saying, one way or the other.

Pretty much the same as what I said...he was answering the question in such a way that she heard what she wanted to hear and that was technically still not a lie.

Ultimately, the biggest lie of all about Vulcans is the notion that they are some sort of perfected paragon of virtue and logic.

They're just like the rest of us and perfectly capable of being bigoted, irrational, etc.

Which is why I never had a problem with them as portrayed in S1-3 of Enterprise.

[Nerys Myk]

Athena28 wrote:

---

I never thought about the half human part re: lying. That could make sense.

How? Lying isn't genetic, he can't inherit it from his mother.