RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,943
Posts: 5,479,296
Members: 25,056
Currently online: 606
Newest member: JeremiahJT

TrekToday headlines

USS Enterprise Press-Out And Build Manual
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

New QMx USS Reliant Model
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Star Trek Thirty-Five Years On 35MM: A Retrospective
By: T'Bonz on Nov 28

Trek Shirt And Hoodie
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

A Klingon Christmas Carol’s Last Season
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

Attack Wing Wave 10 Expansion Pack
By: T'Bonz on Nov 27

New Star Trek Funko Pop! Vinyl Figures
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

QMx Mini Phaser Ornament
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Stewart as Neo-Nazi Skinhead
By: T'Bonz on Nov 26

Klingon Bloodwine To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Nov 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 10 2012, 10:15 AM   #16
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Replicator Economics

A household replicator doesn't require much of a support infrastructure, it seems. After all, Picard was going to donate one to the Uxbridges in "The Survivors": a fridge-sized thing supposedly perfectly capable of keeping the elderly couple supplied, on a planet where the only bit of infrastructure still standing was their own house, and the only bit of arable land was their lawn!

We have never heard of the Federation at large suffering from energy shortages. Supposedly, there are trivially easy and cheap means to extract endless energy from the environment, and the only sort of shortage that may hit you is a short-duration inability to get a sufficient power output for a key application after significant damage is suffered. And "The Survivors" would appear to indicate that the endless energy supplies a typical colonial household directly taps are enough to run a food replicator for the needs of two people.

I gather a food replicator is an option, much like a washing machine is today. But only freaks will go without one, and nobody has to go without one. Even the colonies from which the Maquis movement arose used food replicators ("Preemptive Strike")...

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2012, 10:58 AM   #17
FreddyE
Commander
 
Re: Replicator Economics

Timo wrote: View Post
I gather a food replicator is an option, much like a washing machine is today. But only freaks will go without one, and nobody has to go without one. Even the colonies from which the Maquis movement arose used food replicators ("Preemptive Strike")...

Timo Saloniemi
Actually cooking yourself seems to be seen weird and even "yucky" by some people. I remember Keiko saying something like: "She TOUCHED it and PREPARED it?"...with a disgusted look.
FreddyE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2012, 11:25 AM   #18
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: comfortably residing in the meat packing district
Re: Replicator Economics

Timo wrote: View Post
After all, Picard was going to donate one to the Uxbridges in "The Survivors"
But, didn't Picard himself describe that replicator as "limited?"

FreddyE wrote: View Post
I remember Keiko saying something like: "She TOUCHED it and PREPARED it?"...with a disgusted look.
Riker loved to cook, O'Brien could, both Joseph and Ben Sisko, the Picard family, all made food.

If Robert and Marie won't have a replicator in their house, does it make any sense that they would travel into town to buy replicate food to prepare in their kitchen?

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2012, 09:34 PM   #19
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Replicator Economics

But, didn't Picard himself describe that replicator as "limited?"
...Limited to providing the couple with everything they need to survive: clothing, food and water. At no energy cost, apparently, beyond what the household itself could provide.

It's a bit difficult to imagine a quantum leap in power consumption just for the added capacity of replicating complex machine parts or whatever; the "limited" machine is already performing full-fledged miracles in creating "natural" flavors and textures.

Also interesting is that the machine will provide water; this sort of goes against the idea that it would be converting existing matter. Just about any conversion process imaginable (say, from the silicates of the sand to water) would be basically as energy-expensive as materializing H2O out of pure energy, as it would involve complete transmutation of elements. And conversely, one can think of dozens of ways to cheaply get clean water out of the Class M environment without having to resort either to conversion-type replication or synthesis from pure energy, suggesting that replication isn't significantly more expensive than those processes.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15 2012, 06:48 PM   #20
Saturn0660
Rear Admiral
 
Saturn0660's Avatar
 
Location: NE Ohio
View Saturn0660's Twitter Profile
Re: Replicator Economics

Timo wrote: View Post
But, didn't Picard himself describe that replicator as "limited?"
...Limited to providing the couple with everything they need to survive: clothing, food and water. At no energy cost, apparently, beyond what the household itself could provide.

It's a bit difficult to imagine a quantum leap in power consumption just for the added capacity of replicating complex machine parts or whatever; the "limited" machine is already performing full-fledged miracles in creating "natural" flavors and textures.

Also interesting is that the machine will provide water; this sort of goes against the idea that it would be converting existing matter. Just about any conversion process imaginable (say, from the silicates of the sand to water) would be basically as energy-expensive as materializing H2O out of pure energy, as it would involve complete transmutation of elements. And conversely, one can think of dozens of ways to cheaply get clean water out of the Class M environment without having to resort either to conversion-type replication or synthesis from pure energy, suggesting that replication isn't significantly more expensive than those processes.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe every home has a mini fusion plant in the basement. Not had to believe you can just hook it up. Much like adding an A/C to todays home. You may need to upgrade your service to run one. But i'm sure Mr. LaForge would have that done in 5min flat. I would also guess you can fill the thing with simple dirt to get what you need out of it.

But i would also guess home replicators are SLOW. You may very well get a glass of cold water out of it. But who's to say it wouldn't take 10min to get it.
__________________
How many lights do YOU see?
Saturn0660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 09:37 AM   #21
Lighthammer
Fleet Captain
 
Lighthammer's Avatar
 
Re: Replicator Economics

Bah, I feel like everyone is missing a huge, huge point here.

One thing you have to keep in mind about the Federation is its generally an idyllic socialist like society. All that is made possible by technologies similar to replicators.

That being said, replicators don't just "beam" things out of thing air. Starships have a very complex system by which matter is recycled. Replicators resequence inert recycled matter from one substance into another. It's quite literally a form of what some might call alchemy.

The problem is there is a limit as to how far one form of matter can be resequenced from one form of matter into another form. I've always understood there is a physical tolerance point of how far something can be transformed.

That being said, I'd also suggest that may items that are replicated likely do not have the same quality of things that are hand made from the original products. A possible example that springs to mind might be something like clothing. Clothing that is replicated may literally start to fall apart after a week or a month making a genuine article more desirable. This would explain why many products for engineering can't be replicated --- their probably not able to replicate something with enough tolerance to withstand industrial wear and tear.
__________________
Truth is a 3 edged sword
Lighthammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 11:52 AM   #22
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Replicator Economics

Or then replicators make such superior products (why wouldn't they?) that they are forbidden to do so in most applications, because that would leave 100% of the UFP population out of work, rather than just the 98% they have when they pretend they can't replicate everything.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 07:08 PM   #23
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: comfortably residing in the meat packing district
Re: Replicator Economics

SattyClaus wrote: View Post
Maybe every home has a mini fusion plant in the basement.
Except on Earth, where a handful of cadets were able to black out the planet from a single location in Lisbon. While I could easily see someone like Robert Picard having his own fusion generator, most people on Earth apparently don't.

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
One thing you have to keep in mind about the Federation is its generally an idyllic socialist like society.
The entire Federation? Not from anything we heard on the show.

Earth has been described as a paradise, however it's social and political structure is unclear. It's impossible to label it as "socialist."

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
The problem is there is a limit as to how far one form of matter can be resequenced from one form of matter into another form.
If you wanted to make Osmium (a very dense material) out of liquid water, you would have to change it's atomic weight from 18 to 190. If you started with iron however, you'd "only" have to change from 56 to 190.

Now if you needed a metric tonne of Osmium, and you were using the bussard collector to collect interstellar gas to use as your base material ...

Timo wrote: View Post
because that would leave 100% of the UFP population out of work, rather than just the 98% they have
Admittedly the subject didn't always come up, but the only time we directly heard of someone being "out of work" was Picard's not son. Every other time when employment was mentioned, the person was.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 16 2012, 07:24 PM   #24
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Replicator Economics

Except on Earth, where a handful of cadets were able to black out the planet from a single location in Lisbon. While I could easily see someone like Robert Picard having his own fusion generator, most people on Earth apparently don't.
I'd see that as a global software attack rather than proof of any sort of a centralized power system. No doubt networking in the future is extensive enough that with suitable commands (especially ones coming from systems designed to prevent such commands from ever being issued), one could shut down everything from continental ZPE reactors to pocket replicators, wrist communicators and UT implants.

..the only time we directly heard of someone being "out of work" was Picard's not son.
Which I'd in turn see more as a case of work being highly unusual, hence being out of work despite not wanting to be being even more rare and exotic. An unemployment rate of 98% would be the desired state of affairs, save for the boredom angle which people would fight with hobbies such as terraforming.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.