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Old December 16 2012, 11:41 AM   #106
Edit_XYZ
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Such as? What else could someone use as a means of destruction that would have the same fatality rate as a gun?
Are you kidding? Does the name Timothy McVeigh ring a bell?
The figures prove Kelthaz right - specifically, the frequency and number of victims of such killings in countries with tight gun control (China, European countries, etc) when compared with countries with almost no gun control (such as SUA).

The punchline would be - both the frequency and number of victims are MUCH higher in SUA/countries with loose gun control.

Statistics along those lines are easy to find. Feel free to check them out (although I suspect you don't want to confront these facts because you really don't like their inevitable conclusion).


All your rhetoric or bias can't change these figures.
And the mental health care "proposals" are but weak attempts to obfuscate said figures.
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Old December 16 2012, 12:34 PM   #107
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

If you want some stats on firearms realted deaths

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

Put just to pull a few details (homicides)

US 2.98 per 100 000
UK 0.04 per 100 000
Japan 0.02 per 100 000

As countries like the UK and Japan have some of the most strict gun laws in the developed world, the facts speak for themselves. (of course other crimes such as Knife crimes might be higher in those countries).
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Old December 16 2012, 02:38 PM   #108
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

It's worth mentioning the example of Australia, as well:
In 1996, Australia changed its gun laws following a particularly bad mass shooting: banning assault rifles, severely restricting other types of fire-arms, limiting magazines to five rounds (three for pump-action shotguns, auto-loaders were banned outright). Researchers compared the rate of mass shootings before and after - using fixed criteria, not just what "felt" like a mass-shooting - and found that the rate dropped from one every 18 months before the change, to just one event in the 16 years since the change.

There were no other noticeable changes that might be responsible for the reduction; no reduction in poverty, or improvements in mental health treatment. And judging by other crime rates, there wasn't a significant change in culture or economics or policing. Hell, even the number of firearms in society recovered within a few years. And the only things that did change in Australia, it shared with the US. There was an increase in antidepressant use in Australia, but so too in the US. Video-games violence became more photorealistic, and so too in the US.

It's such a perfect experiment: Similar culture. Only one major change, gun laws. And one clear result, the virtual elimination of mass shootings.

If you want to reduce the rate of mass shootings in the US by an order of magnitude, Australia can tell you how to do it.


But your country won't like the taste of the medicine.
Indeed, in USA, many DE FACTO accept mass shootings as the one that just happened (as long as they are not the victims, of course) if that's the price to pay for them to keep having assault rifles, high-capacity magazines, etc.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 16 2012 at 02:51 PM.
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Old December 16 2012, 02:54 PM   #109
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

^That is the question to ask.

Would you still support the current gun laws if your child/sibling/mother/father etc.. was murdered by one?
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Old December 16 2012, 03:17 PM   #110
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Are you kidding? Does the name Timothy McVeigh ring a bell?
They changed security requirements on federal facilities after that. I worked on a few projects for the VA where you couldn't get a vehicle within 50' of the building. Granted, someone could walk in with a bomb strapped to him or a machine gun, but at least the whole building wouldn't be taken out.

As for the gun issue, you could make them as illegal as could be a someone determined enough could still get one on the black market. Drugs are illegal and people get them all the time.

As for the culture of violence, I agree with this mostly. Violence is glorified in TV and movies. If there aren't enough explosions and bodies, we complain it was dull and lacked action. Video games are even worse. There's another shoot 'em up. game every 5 minutes. You're actively fantasizing about mowing down space aliens or the Taliban.

As for the guns, I would say leave the semi-automatic weapons to law enforcement and the military. You want a gun for hunting or self protection or just to fire off a few rounds at the range, great. But what do you need an uzi for? Worried about the zombie apocolypse?
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Old December 16 2012, 03:27 PM   #111
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

The same TV and movies - glorifying violence -, the same shoot'em up video games are being watched/played in Australia and the other countries with strict gun control.
They DO NOT translate into mass shootings.

In Australia and the other countries with strict gun control, certain guns being illegal DOES NOT translate into every loser who wants to shoot people because he's depressed being able to get his/her hands on one via the black market.


As such, both of these arguments are obviously fallacies, merely empty rhetoric whose purpose is to avoid addressing the real problem: the ubiquity/easy access to assault guns/high-capacity magazines/etc in the USA.
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Old December 16 2012, 04:05 PM   #112
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

i agree with XYZ

to anyone saying this isnt the time to talk about gun control, open your eyes. this is the perfect time to make a change that will save lives. the statistics bare it out. maybe something could come from this tragedy.

(i'm sure i put forward this arguement in another thread once upon a time and was laughed of as a communist by some gun nut. )

take all the guns. melt them down.
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Old December 16 2012, 04:40 PM   #113
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

SmoothieX wrote: View Post
As for the gun issue, you could make them as illegal as could be a someone determined enough could still get one on the black market. Drugs are illegal and people get them all the time.
That argument is exceptionally silly. Should we allow explosives just because guys like Timothy McVeigh were determined enough to mix explosives themselves?

Drugs are illegal and people get them all the time, yes. Now imagine a world were all drugs are perfectly legal.
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Old December 16 2012, 05:11 PM   #114
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

jayrath wrote: View Post
I'll save discussion of the potential merits of gun control for another day. But we have just got to do something about the culture of violence in this country.

When Pres. Kennedy was assassinated, TV shows dialed down violence a great deal, toy guns disappeared from stores. I was never even allowed to play with one or to have a G.I. Joe. The amount of gore on even network television these days sincerely alarms me.
So today is not the day to discuss guns (you know, the actual weapons used in the massacre), but it's ok to blame tv shows and toys?
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Old December 16 2012, 05:56 PM   #115
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Gingerbread Girl wrote: View Post
Jesus. What is wrong with these people? Westboro "church" to picket Newtown funerals.
said on Friday night this'd happen by Tuesday at the latest - depressing to see I'm right. Why in the name of fuck, in a country with so many guns and so many people willing to shoot people, does nobody shoot these sick fuckers who deserve it?
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Old December 16 2012, 06:01 PM   #116
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Such as? What else could someone use as a means of destruction that would have the same fatality rate as a gun?
Though, really, the US does need to rethink it's gun laws, Kelthaz may find this - America's worst school massacre - of interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
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Old December 16 2012, 06:05 PM   #117
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

As for gun control...

On Livejournal I was asked my opinion on gun ownership, related also to knives (think of the Chinese school attack yesterday)- this is what I replied:

Both knives and guns have practical uses in certain situations (knives in the kitchen, guns in defending yourself against wild animals in some parts of the world, for example) and are easily misused elsewhere.

I really think the problem with most people's contributions to debating gun ownership - on whichever side, in whichever country - is that they think there's some universal value about it, and don't get that different countries have different societal and cultural contexts as a result of their histories and populations.

So people will say "oh, what worked in... Japan, say, will work in the US." But it won't, because one is a country that been ethnically homogenous for millennia, and spent centuries evolving a tiered social structure in which everyone knew where they fit in, and the other is a random mashup of peoples who came together in a war against a colonial centre...

(In the UK, by the time handguns came along, they were already established as upper-class duelling weapons, not something of use or interest to the lower classes, for whom the shotgun was a more practical game-hunting and pest control device - which is why the UK never had that big a handgun lifestyle)

To discuss whether gun ownership is good or bad, right or wrong - and to discuss what the nature of that ownership should be - you have to be discussing it about a specific society and with and understanding of how and why they are the way they are.

That said, the US constitution was designed, contextually, to evolve and be amended over time, and the Second Amendment - written to cover swords, muskets, and pikes (there were *no* repeating weapons then) - was intended to be used for something akin to Switzerland's defence force laws, not to become the religious fetish totem that it has become, and they really need to think about updating it as it was always intended to by the Founding Fathers.

Also, I'm with Chris Rock on the matter of ammo, which would solve a lot of problems!
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Old December 16 2012, 06:11 PM   #118
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The same TV and movies - glorifying violence -, the same shoot'em up video games are being watched/played in Australia and the other countries with strict gun control.
They DO NOT translate into mass shootings.
THIS. In spades.

books/games/music/comics have always been easier targets that sell papers. End of.

In Australia and the other countries with strict gun control, certain guns being illegal DOES NOT translate into every loser who wants to shoot people because he's depressed being able to get his/her hands on one via the black market.

As such, both of these arguments are obviously fallacies, merely empty rhetoric whose purpose is to avoid addressing the real problem: the ubiquity/easy access to assault guns/high-capacity magazines/etc in the USA.
Australia isn't the US though- there's a lot more unregistered weapons available there. I don't believe it'd be physically possible to eliminate them from the US.

At the very least, though, they really need to *control*the guns more - following at least the pre-ban models of the UK/Australia/japan etc with licensing, fitness checks, etc. Even that would make a huge difference.

But I can't see it happening in a country where interest groups block even minor legislation to track the resale of weapons previously used in crimes, as if that somehow translates to "they're taking our toys away!"
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Old December 16 2012, 06:47 PM   #119
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

The Westboro buttclowns with their endless GOD LOVES {TRAGEDIES} and GOD HATES {fill-in-the-blank} signs are even more imbecilic than these cookie-cutter shooters's rationales.
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Old December 16 2012, 07:15 PM   #120
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Obviously without easy access to guns there wouldn't be such high levels of gun crime, but the availability of guns doesn't immediately and necessarily make violence a reality. It just makes it easier for someone who intends violence to carry it out. Removing easy access to guns would definitely make crimes like this rarer and harder to stage (and some might say that's really all that's required), but the underlying pressures and tensions that contribute to high rates of violent crime need to be dealt with too, and I worry that those pressures and tensions in American society aren't going to be dealt with or examined with any degree of interest, because it's going to become another gun debate. And, again, I agree that such a discussion absolutely needs to take place, and if positive changes in that area come about in the near future I'll be very happy, but I wouldn't want it to close off any other avenues for confronting factors that contribute to the high rate of gun crime in the US.

And I don't mean the tired old fallacies commentators are trotting out about violence in video games, etc. That's just another example of how people fall back into comfort zones and easy arguments rather than challenging anything. And, yes, for certain ideological groups it's a convenient scapegoat for having to confront the gun control question. They don't want to touch that because many of their supporters would be alienated, so they settle on video games as the demon. But I think the gun control question isn't that far removed itself from being, if not a scapegoat, then another means by which American society (and apparently the rest of us too) distracts itself from tackling the deeper social issues that plague any large nation.

Of course the easy availability of guns in the US is significant and contributes to the ease and frequency of crimes like this, but when some people argue that it's not about guns, they mean that it's always preferrable to dig out the roots of the weed rather than just cut off the stalk and then aggressively monitor it so it doesn't grow back.
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