Replicator Economics

[Timo]

A household replicator doesn't require much of a support infrastructure, it seems. After all, Picard was going to donate one to the Uxbridges in "The Survivors": a fridge-sized thing supposedly perfectly capable of keeping the elderly couple supplied, on a planet where the only bit of infrastructure still standing was their own house, and the only bit of arable land was their lawn!

We have never heard of the Federation at large suffering from energy shortages. Supposedly, there are trivially easy and cheap means to extract endless energy from the environment, and the only sort of shortage that may hit you is a short-duration inability to get a sufficient power output for a key application after significant damage is suffered. And "The Survivors" would appear to indicate that the endless energy supplies a typical colonial household directly taps are enough to run a food replicator for the needs of two people.

I gather a food replicator is an option, much like a washing machine is today. But only freaks will go without one, and nobody has to go without one. Even the colonies from which the Maquis movement arose used food replicators ("Preemptive Strike")...

Timo Saloniemi

[FreddyE]

Timo wrote:

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I gather a food replicator is an option, much like a washing machine is today. But only freaks will go without one, and nobody has to go without one. Even the colonies from which the Maquis movement arose used food replicators ("Preemptive Strike")...

Timo Saloniemi

Actually cooking yourself seems to be seen weird and even "yucky" by some people. I remember Keiko saying something like: "She TOUCHED it and PREPARED it?"...with a disgusted look.

[T'Girl]

Timo wrote:

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After all, Picard was going to donate one to the Uxbridges in "The Survivors"

But, didn't Picard himself describe that replicator as "limited?"

FreddyE wrote:

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I remember Keiko saying something like: "She TOUCHED it and PREPARED it?"...with a disgusted look.

Riker loved to cook, O'Brien could, both Joseph and Ben Sisko, the Picard family, all made food.

If Robert and Marie won't have a replicator in their house, does it make any sense that they would travel into town to buy replicate food to prepare in their kitchen?

[Timo]

But, didn't Picard himself describe that replicator as "limited?"

...Limited to providing the couple with everything they need to survive: clothing, food and water. At no energy cost, apparently, beyond what the household itself could provide.

It's a bit difficult to imagine a quantum leap in power consumption just for the added capacity of replicating complex machine parts or whatever; the "limited" machine is already performing full-fledged miracles in creating "natural" flavors and textures.

Also interesting is that the machine will provide water; this sort of goes against the idea that it would be converting existing matter. Just about any conversion process imaginable (say, from the silicates of the sand to water) would be basically as energy-expensive as materializing H2O out of pure energy, as it would involve complete transmutation of elements. And conversely, one can think of dozens of ways to cheaply get clean water out of the Class M environment without having to resort either to conversion-type replication or synthesis from pure energy, suggesting that replication isn't significantly more expensive than those processes.

Timo Saloniemi

[Saturn0660]

Timo wrote:

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...Limited to providing the couple with everything they need to survive: clothing, food and water. At no energy cost, apparently, beyond what the household itself could provide.

It's a bit difficult to imagine a quantum leap in power consumption just for the added capacity of replicating complex machine parts or whatever; the "limited" machine is already performing full-fledged miracles in creating "natural" flavors and textures.

Also interesting is that the machine will provide water; this sort of goes against the idea that it would be converting existing matter. Just about any conversion process imaginable (say, from the silicates of the sand to water) would be basically as energy-expensive as materializing H2O out of pure energy, as it would involve complete transmutation of elements. And conversely, one can think of dozens of ways to cheaply get clean water out of the Class M environment without having to resort either to conversion-type replication or synthesis from pure energy, suggesting that replication isn't significantly more expensive than those processes.

Timo Saloniemi

Maybe every home has a mini fusion plant in the basement. Not had to believe you can just hook it up. Much like adding an A/C to todays home. You may need to upgrade your service to run one. But i'm sure Mr. LaForge would have that done in 5min flat. I would also guess you can fill the thing with simple dirt to get what you need out of it.

But i would also guess home replicators are SLOW. You may very well get a glass of cold water out of it. But who's to say it wouldn't take 10min to get it.

[Lighthammer]

Bah, I feel like everyone is missing a huge, huge point here.

One thing you have to keep in mind about the Federation is its generally an idyllic socialist like society. All that is made possible by technologies similar to replicators.

That being said, replicators don't just "beam" things out of thing air. Starships have a very complex system by which matter is recycled. Replicators resequence inert recycled matter from one substance into another. It's quite literally a form of what some might call alchemy.

The problem is there is a limit as to how far one form of matter can be resequenced from one form of matter into another form. I've always understood there is a physical tolerance point of how far something can be transformed.

That being said, I'd also suggest that may items that are replicated likely do not have the same quality of things that are hand made from the original products. A possible example that springs to mind might be something like clothing. Clothing that is replicated may literally start to fall apart after a week or a month making a genuine article more desirable. This would explain why many products for engineering can't be replicated --- their probably not able to replicate something with enough tolerance to withstand industrial wear and tear.

[Timo]

Or then replicators make such superior products (why wouldn't they?) that they are forbidden to do so in most applications, because that would leave 100% of the UFP population out of work, rather than just the 98% they have when they pretend they can't replicate everything.

Timo Saloniemi

[T'Girl]

SattyClaus wrote:

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Maybe every home has a mini fusion plant in the basement.

Except on Earth, where a handful of cadets were able to black out the planet from a single location in Lisbon. While I could easily see someone like Robert Picard having his own fusion generator, most people on Earth apparently don't.

Lighthammer wrote:

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One thing you have to keep in mind about the Federation is its generally an idyllic socialist like society.

The entire Federation? Not from anything we heard on the show.

Earth has been described as a paradise, however it's social and political structure is unclear. It's impossible to label it as "socialist."

Lighthammer wrote:

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The problem is there is a limit as to how far one form of matter can be resequenced from one form of matter into another form.

If you wanted to make Osmium (a very dense material) out of liquid water, you would have to change it's atomic weight from 18 to 190. If you started with iron however, you'd "only" have to change from 56 to 190.

Now if you needed a metric tonne of Osmium, and you were using the bussard collector to collect interstellar gas to use as your base material ...

Timo wrote:

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because that would leave 100% of the UFP population out of work, rather than just the 98% they have

Admittedly the subject didn't always come up, but the only time we directly heard of someone being "out of work" was Picard's not son. Every other time when employment was mentioned, the person was.

[Timo]

Except on Earth, where a handful of cadets were able to black out the planet from a single location in Lisbon. While I could easily see someone like Robert Picard having his own fusion generator, most people on Earth apparently don't.

I'd see that as a global software attack rather than proof of any sort of a centralized power system. No doubt networking in the future is extensive enough that with suitable commands (especially ones coming from systems designed to prevent such commands from ever being issued), one could shut down everything from continental ZPE reactors to pocket replicators, wrist communicators and UT implants.

..the only time we directly heard of someone being "out of work" was Picard's not son.

Which I'd in turn see more as a case of work being highly unusual, hence being out of work despite not wanting to be being even more rare and exotic. An unemployment rate of 98% would be the desired state of affairs, save for the boredom angle which people would fight with hobbies such as terraforming.

Timo Saloniemi