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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old December 11 2012, 07:13 AM   #16
Nerys Myk
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Re: Spock Lying

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
Athena28 wrote: View Post
I know it's dicey regarding Spock lying. Vulcans don't do it often, but they can.

He's omitted the truth, exaggerated the truth, but flat out lied like here and not for any real reason?

In several other eps. he lied - The Enterprise Incident, The Menagerie & movies: Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country but those could be seen (I guess) as for the good of the ship/crew. Why the lie in this ep?
Vucans lie ALL THE TIME. The whole "Vulcans don't lie" was started when he had the exchange with the Romulan Commander of:

Romulan Commander: "...there's and old saying; or perhaps it's a myth, that Vulcans cannot lie?"

Mr. Spock: "It is no myth, Commander..."
^^^
The problem is: Spock was LYING to the Romulan Commander when he stated that; and that's clearly evident if you watch the entire episode in context front to back.


It was established that Spock could/would lie in the first season two part episode that ree-cut the original pilot footage to make it usable for the series - "The Menagerie".

Then in "Journey To Babel" we had evidence full blooded Vulcans had no problem lying as Spock's father lied to both Captain Kirk and his own wife in an attempt to conceal his bad heart condition.

People who site Spock's line from "The Enterprise Incident" as 'canon proof' that Vulcans don't lie are in fact, taking the line out of context when you view the events of that episode in their entirety. If anything that episode proves conclusively that Vulcans can (and will) lie if they see a logical reason to do so.
Are you Vulcanian? You present a very logical argument.
He's lying.
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Old December 12 2012, 03:29 AM   #17
JimZipCode
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Re: Spock Lying

Noname Given wrote: View Post
People who cite Spock's line from "The Enterprise Incident" as 'canon proof' that Vulcans don't lie are...
Are there really such idiots?
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Old December 12 2012, 09:52 AM   #18
Timo
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Re: Spock Lying

Well, Data is, sort of.

He'd probably make for an even more annoying Star Trek fan than the undersigned.

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Old December 12 2012, 06:32 PM   #19
JimZipCode
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Re: Spock Lying

Well, it's interesting. The Klingons in John M Ford's The Final Reflection (1984) are convinced that Vulcans cannot lie. At one point Krenn is wondering, "If it should be found that a Vulcan could lie..." It's an important subpoint – not a plot point exactly, since no plot events occur around it, but an important piece of setting that informs the presence of all the Vulcans in Klingon society.

But I don't think Ford is taking the position that it's actually true; but rather that Klingons think it's true, and it's part of their racial theorizing / master race / manifest destiny cosmology. And there is precedent in TOS for Federation enemies to think that, since the Romulan Commander in Enterprise Incident believes it too.
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Old December 12 2012, 08:18 PM   #20
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Spock Lying

JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
People who cite Spock's line from "The Enterprise Incident" as 'canon proof' that Vulcans don't lie are...
Are there really such idiots?
I have run into one or two fans who believe that anything said by any character in any context must be taken as literally and precisely true. They often have to disregard both storyline and characterization to do so, but still...
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Old December 13 2012, 07:11 AM   #21
Timo
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Re: Spock Lying

And there is precedent in TOS for Federation enemies to think that, since the Romulan Commander in Enterprise Incident believes it too.
One might say that many species are in awe of the Vulcan alienness - their frankly quite exceptional self-restraint, their scary mindmelding skills, their reputation as fierce fighters in the past, their no doubt fascinating sexual perversions. People who would consider a Bolian or an Andorian just a fellow member of their own species with a particularly ugly face, and not trust him beyond how much they'd trust their weird uncle or lazy son-in-law, would believe anything about Vulcans.

And it is logical to think that Romulans would have a particularly severe blind spot in this respect, as their propaganda machine would have been feeding them "Vulcan otherness" for at least two millennia already. They might look down on enemies in general, but after such overexposure, the intense "Vulcans are different" propaganda would backfire and make them look up on them.

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Old December 13 2012, 09:11 PM   #22
Greg Cox
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Re: Spock Lying

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
JimZipCode wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
People who cite Spock's line from "The Enterprise Incident" as 'canon proof' that Vulcans don't lie are...
Are there really such idiots?
I have run into one or two fans who believe that anything said by any character in any context must be taken as literally and precisely true. They often have to disregard both storyline and characterization to do so, but still...
It's not just a Trekkie thing. This was a perennial source of confusion in the Underworld series, where the Vampire Elders lie all the time about their history, backstory, mythology, etc. This often seemed to fly over the heads of some confused UW fans who took every declaration from Viktor or Marcus as gospel--even when the plot made it very clear that they were constantly rewriting history to suit their own purposes.

"But . . . but Marcus said that killing an Elder would cause all vampires to die. So why didn't Selene die when she killed Marcus?"

Er, because Marcus created that myth for his own protection, as explained mid-way through the second movie.

Trust me, I used to get letters . . .
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Old December 15 2012, 09:24 PM   #23
Ian Keldon
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Re: Spock Lying

Interestingly enough, Spock has a "get out of jail free" card where he can make a case for NOT lying to the Romulan commander about lying.

She says "There is an old saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans cannot lie...?"

Spock replies: "It is no myth..."

Technically speaking, he could make the case that he was saying: "It is not a myth that there is an old saying that 'Vulcans cannot lie'...", which would be literally true...just not answering her REAL question and letting her assume that he did.

By the way, another case of Spock lying is in "The Tholian Web" when he joins Bones in denying that they'd listened to Kirk's message tape.

Frankly, it is the case, IMO, that most of the "Vulcans are pacifists/vegetarians'[insert behavior preference x]" carries an implicit caveat of "generally speaking" and "by choice".
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Old December 16 2012, 03:04 PM   #24
Gary7
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Re: Spock Lying

Garrovick wrote: View Post
Spock's human half definitely helped him to tell the occasional lie when the situation demaded. I can't imagine a full Vulcan, regardless of the stakes, telling Norman that logic is a little bird, chirping in a meadow, or that logic was a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad.
^ +1, QFT.
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Old December 16 2012, 04:26 PM   #25
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Spock Lying

^ Well to be fair, that bit with Norman wasn't simply a lie, it was gibberish. Perhaps a full Vulcan could have found it logical to use such gibberish if it was for the specific purpose done in that episode.
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Old December 16 2012, 06:29 PM   #26
Athena28
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Re: Spock Lying

I never thought about the half human part re: lying. That could make sense.
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Old December 16 2012, 08:43 PM   #27
T'Girl
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Re: Spock Lying

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
She says "There is an old saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans cannot lie...?"

Spock replies: "It is no myth..."

Technically speaking, he could make the case that he was saying: "It is not a myth that there is an old saying that 'Vulcans cannot lie'...", which would be literally true...just not answering her REAL question and letting her assume that he did.
Or, Spock could be saying that while it is not a myth that Vulcans cannot lie, there is in fact an old saying about Vulcan being incapable of lying.

Spock said nothing about the veracity of the old saying, one way or the other.

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Old December 16 2012, 08:54 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Spock Lying

..."It is no myth" = "It's a total sham", perhaps?

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Old December 17 2012, 12:53 AM   #29
Ian Keldon
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Re: Spock Lying

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
She says "There is an old saying, or is it a myth, that Vulcans cannot lie...?"

Spock replies: "It is no myth..."

Technically speaking, he could make the case that he was saying: "It is not a myth that there is an old saying that 'Vulcans cannot lie'...", which would be literally true...just not answering her REAL question and letting her assume that he did.
Or, Spock could be saying that while it is not a myth that Vulcans cannot lie, there is in fact an old saying about Vulcan being incapable of lying.

Spock said nothing about the veracity of the old saying, one way or the other.

Pretty much the same as what I said...he was answering the question in such a way that she heard what she wanted to hear and that was technically still not a lie.

Ultimately, the biggest lie of all about Vulcans is the notion that they are some sort of perfected paragon of virtue and logic.

They're just like the rest of us and perfectly capable of being bigoted, irrational, etc.

Which is why I never had a problem with them as portrayed in S1-3 of Enterprise.
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Old December 17 2012, 02:14 AM   #30
Nerys Myk
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Re: Spock Lying

Athena28 wrote: View Post
I never thought about the half human part re: lying. That could make sense.
How? Lying isn't genetic, he can't inherit it from his mother.
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