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Old December 15 2012, 04:37 AM   #76
donners22
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Tulin wrote: View Post
Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
This is so tragic and so depressing.
Having visited Port Arthur a few years ago I have to say what is tragic and depressing is that the US doesn't have the brains amd back bone to do what the Australian government did back then.

But then, we wouldn't want the gun nuts to lose their "raaaahhhhts".......would we?

We've never had the gun culture that the US does, though. It's a very different situation which was far easier to respond to.

We have more than enough social problems without guns, not least a culture of alcohol-fuelled violence.


It nonetheless staggers me that a middle-aged teacher would own four registered guns, with her partner owning another two.
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Last edited by donners22; December 15 2012 at 08:19 AM.
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Old December 15 2012, 05:54 AM   #77
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

When these tragic events like these occur and make us feel so helpless, we struggle to make sense of it all and wonder how we can prevent it from happening again.

The problem is that we simply cannot. With the recent shootings, we talk about gun control. So far the initial evidence is that the guns were legal owned by others and taken by the shooters.

But it just isn’t about guns. Most people don’t remember the Bath School disaster.

From Wikipedia:
On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his fragmentation-filled vehicle with his Winchester rifle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing. Kehoe apparently had intended to blow up and destroy the whole school.
If someone is bent on doing harm, they will often find a way. The best way to combat this is to try and treat everyone with fairness and kindness.
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Old December 15 2012, 06:02 AM   #78
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

It would be almost impossible for anything like the Bath Massacre to happen in a school today.
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Old December 15 2012, 07:45 AM   #79
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

So, it's being reported now that Adam Lanza was an "honors student" and described by former classmates as a "genius smart kid" who was part of a "LAN club" at school and "one of the goths".

So, rich white kid who was a goth, played (no doubt violent) video games, honors student, and had a developmental disorder most likely asperger's or HFA and displayed signs of OCD.
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Old December 15 2012, 10:21 AM   #80
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

foxhot wrote: View Post
This latest umpteenth incident has extra similarities to a horrific single-classroom shooting in late 1990s Scotland. One ''man'' murdered the teacher, killed roughly half and wounded nearly all of approximately 30 gradeschoolers, all well under 10 years of age.

Did we have at least one elementary school incident about that same time in the Midwest, pre-Columbine? Or was it a junior high in this case? I remember another female teacher and perhaps half-a-dozen kids perished. That was also pre-Columbine. The {unprintable} who massacred those at Virginia Tech was partially inspired by Columbine's Dumb and Dumber killers.

Then, more recently in this country, a ''man'' who had lost his daughter decided to shoot and kill over five Amish girls of various ages. Several of the girls actually asked to be the victims so there friends could be spared. After this horrible incident, the Amish community reached out to the killer's widow and declared he was forgiven. I'm not capable of thinking that, but the Amish set one hell of an example.

That would be the 1996 Dunblane Massacre which was 17 deaths (16 Children and 1 Adult). The outcome of which were the gun laws were tightened (after already being tightened circa 1988 following another shotting massacre in Hungerford), more or less banning handguns in the UK.

Though despite President Obama's words I suspect very little will change in the US regarding firearms.
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Old December 15 2012, 11:50 AM   #81
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
Also today:

http://www.latimes.com/news/world/wo...,6383015.story

Today, a sick man in the United States killed 28 people with his guns.

Today, a sick man in China didn't kill 22 people with his knife.

Mark
In the USA, that's the 3RD such major 'incident' involving mass killings by firearms this year.
In China, that was the only such 'incident' in two years; and it came nowhere close to having a number of casualties (as in, killed victims) in the dozens.
China has ~1,3 BILLION inhabitants; USA, ~315 millions.

The imbalance is obvious to anyone who cares to look.


There will always be depressed losers who blame society for their problems. No type or amount of mental health care services will change this.

Where guns are NOT easy to obtain/NOT owned by anyone and his idiot cousin, they can't get one (meticulous, long-term planning is definitely not their strength).
Using knives/other such weapons requires training (and, again, meticulous, sustained effort is not their strength). Also, knives/etc are far from being as deadly as firearms - as the comparison between the number of victims in SUA and China attests to.


What does this mean?
In countries where firearms are NOT easily obtainable, such 'incidents' (crazies killing tens of people) are rare.
In countries where firearms are easy to obtain and, consequently, ubiquitous (such as the USA), such 'incidents' are not rare at all - quite the opposite.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 15 2012 at 12:07 PM.
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Old December 15 2012, 11:51 AM   #82
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

double post
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Old December 15 2012, 11:58 AM   #83
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

This is just tragic beyond belief. The violent death of so many small children is too heartbreaking for words. Offering condolences to the survivors and families is inadequate, to say the least, but what else can one say?

jayrath wrote: View Post
I don't know the answers -- surely better and more available mental health care must be part of the mix -- but when will we finally be moved as a society to do something? We must refuse to accept that this sort of horrific event has become "normal" -- that we'll just murmur nice words, go back to our lives . . . and then wait for the next mass-killing.
Exactly. Thank you for being the voice of reason here. Escalating a situation like this with hatred does not help anything. We need to do a much better job of identifying and treating mental illness.
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Old December 15 2012, 03:21 PM   #84
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Newtown is about half an hour from where I grew up. They got an awesome grocery store there where you can sample stuff as you go. Great place to go when you want a free lunch. Nice movie theater there too.

Probably won't be big crowds at the Danbury Mall today if you want to get some Xmas shopping in. Of course you might get shot in the event this wasn't an isolated event.
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Old December 15 2012, 03:42 PM   #85
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

I used to live in CT and drove through Newtown on my way to work. Very pleasant small rural town, which could be "Anytown USA" really. How horrific this whole thing has been... Newtown has lost its "under the radar" cachet... going to be an unsettled place for some time to come. My heart is so broken over this. 18 innocent lives.

Non Sync is right. It's not about guns. It's about mental health. THAT is the problem. A crazy mind like this can devise other means of destruction if guns aren't available. Unfortunately, the reason why such tragedies happen is due to severe mental illness that is allowed to fester without any reparation. It's a CULTURAL problem. That's the real issue at hand that nobody really wants to admit. And sticking electronic emotion monitoring chips inside people to make sure they behave is probably going to end up as the solution if we don't address the core issue, which is parenting and communication. Adam was probably living in his own little frustrated world, and allowed himself to degenerate over time until he'd do something like this. I have a suspicion that his father and older brother are going to come back with "well, he was having some problems and didn't want to talk about them much, and that's about it... sadly."
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Old December 15 2012, 04:31 PM   #86
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Sad. So sad. Newtown is a bit outside the part of Connecticut I'm familiar with. But it hit home especially as an Educator.

If I get the job near Boston, Newtown would be on the route from here.
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Old December 15 2012, 04:34 PM   #87
Tora Ziyal
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
^^^ I like that. A lot. Unfortunately, I don't think the media is going to allow us to forget for quite some time the way this is playing out.
Can't blame it just on the media. We're totally capable of deciding how much of the coverage we do and don't want to read/watch/listen to.

jayrath wrote: View Post
I'll save discussion of the potential merits of gun control for another day. But we have just got to do something about the culture of violence in this country.

When Pres. Kennedy was assassinated, TV shows dialed down violence a great deal, toy guns disappeared from stores. I was never even allowed to play with one or to have a G.I. Joe. The amount of gore on even network television these days sincerely alarms me.

We has a mass shooting just last week. I don't know the answers -- surely better and more available mental health care must be part of the mix -- but when will we finally be moved as a society to do something? We must refuse to accept that this sort of horrific event has become "normal" -- that we'll just murmur nice words, go back to our lives . . . and then wait for the next mass-killing.
Nicely said, Jayrath.

bigdaddy wrote: View Post
But the death total is...

6 Adults at the school
18 Kids at the school
2 kids at the hospital
1 adult at some place in town
Killed himself
Why can't they ever start with the last step?
Far more people die of suicide than homicide, so, in a sense, most people do start with the last step.
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Old December 15 2012, 05:52 PM   #88
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

^ But unfortunately, the (apparently) homicidal ones don't.

The ones that do are monumentally depressed, the ones that don't have a load of other issues.
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Old December 15 2012, 06:10 PM   #89
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Gary7 wrote: View Post
Non Sync is right. It's not about guns. It's about mental health. THAT is the problem. A crazy mind like this can devise other means of destruction if guns aren't available. Unfortunately, the reason why such tragedies happen is due to severe mental illness that is allowed to fester without any reparation. It's a CULTURAL problem. That's the real issue at hand that nobody really wants to admit. And sticking electronic emotion monitoring chips inside people to make sure they behave is probably going to end up as the solution if we don't address the core issue
I believe you're right, Gary7. Unfortuntely, from what I've seen it looks like the "gun issue" is dominating the discussion yet again. And I do think it's an important issue that really does need discussing, but I think it's drawing attention away from the real problem - which I'd hazard a guess is the lack of interest in monitoring and supporting the long-term mental health of citizens, as well as cultural attitudes that push self-reliance, individualism and competition to unhealthy extremes and foster frustration, isolation and aggression in those who can't cope. I also fear that when this sort of thing happens, with the response from most people being to close ranks and exclude the murderer, it encourages further the general attitude that nothing should be done until a person snaps, that individual responsibility is all that matters and poor mental health is "not our problem" - unfortunately, it will be everyone's problem, because some people end up with their minds twisted enough that they'll do things like this, and it's far too late then.

I think part of the problem is that these discussions - gun control, mental health, violence - only seem to catch people's attention when we're dealing with reaction to the aftermath of a terrible crime. And that's not a good time to hold such a discussion, because distress and anger and confusion are all running high. When you're responding to something like this in the immediate aftermath, any reaction is going to be concerned with either soothing unrest and providing comfort or exploiting the unrest to some political or ideological end. Neither of those lends itself easily to a truthful examination of a society. People will latch onto the easy answers or the comfortable old debates (e.g. American gun control), and because a show of solidarity becomes incredibly important after events like this, it means the more uncomfortable issues are not going to be examined for fear of harming that sense of emotional unity.

The discussions and examinations need to happen before these events, and between them. Building on something Ziyal said above, the suicide rate needs real attention; the vast majority of disturbed people kill themselves and no-one else, and unless there's some ideological/political capital to be taken from it there's never any real attention paid to them. I'd encourage a discussion on mental health and attitudes toward support and community over another debate on guns, but I'm wary that trying to start such a discussion in response to an event like this is not likely to lead anywhere productive. I think I'd suggest that everyone wait for the shock and unrest to die down a little, but don't just forget what's happened; use it to encourage a rational discussion on change.
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Old December 15 2012, 06:22 PM   #90
Tora Ziyal
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Re: MASSIVE Elementary School Shooting in CT *12-24 Maybe be dead

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
The discussions and examinations need to happen before these events, and between them. Building on something Ziyal said above, the suicide rate needs real attention; the vast majority of disturbed people kill themselves and no-one else, and unless there's some ideological/political capital to be taken from it there's never any real attention paid to them. I'd encourage a discussion on mental health and attitudes toward support and community over another debate on guns, but I'm wary that trying to start such a discussion in response to an event like this is not likely to lead anywhere productive. I think I'd suggest that everyone wait for the shock and unrest to die down a little, but don't just forget what's happened; use it to encourage a rational discussion on change.
Amen! The only part I disagree with is that I think we have to have both discussions, mental health and guns. As we saw so dramatically yesterday, a disturbed person with a gun can do so much more damage in a short period of time than a disturbed person with some other weapon.
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