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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 13 2012, 12:20 AM   #121
MacLeod
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Re: Insurrection

The non-interferance is just one aspect of the Prime Directive. If the Ba'ku told the Federation to get lost, then the Federation would have to get lost.

It does not matter if they are indeginious or not, the Ba'ku establsihed what could be described as a colony before the Federation was founded.

The Ba'ku aren't members of the Federation which means their colonies aren't either. So the Federation has no right to just walk in and take what they want.
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Old December 13 2012, 03:35 AM   #122
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The non-interferance is just one aspect of the Prime Directive. If the Ba'ku told the Federation to get lost, then the Federation would have to get lost.

It does not matter if they are indeginious or not, the Ba'ku establsihed what could be described as a colony before the Federation was founded.

The Ba'ku aren't members of the Federation which means their colonies aren't either. So the Federation has no right to just walk in and take what they want.

I'm curious about what your views on the Son'a's claims here are. They basically ARE the Baku, and all they really did was lose a political struggle. Had they come in, removed the Baku themselves, and then sold the particles to the UFP that'd be fine, right?


I mean, all they really need is permission from the UFP to enter their territory in force. Then the UFP can sit back and watch as the Son'a do the removal work.


Based on your views of the Baku claims, can you explain your objections to this reasoning?
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Old December 13 2012, 07:43 AM   #123
MacLeod
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Re: Insurrection

As you point out the Son'a are the same race as the Ba'ku and thus according to the Prime Directive it is an internal matter of a non-member race and as such according to their own rules the Federation can't get involved.

But the Federation didn't know that until some point during the events of the Prime Directive, the Son'a in part were using the Federation to get revenge.
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Old December 13 2012, 02:43 PM   #124
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

MacLeod wrote: View Post
As you point out the Son'a are the same race as the Ba'ku and thus according to the Prime Directive it is an internal matter of a non-member race and as such according to their own rules the Federation can't get involved.

But the Federation didn't know that until some point during the events of the Prime Directive, the Son'a in part were using the Federation to get revenge.


Again, it's baffling why the Son'a didn't just tell Starfleet the truth and then have Starfleet let the Son'a come in and do ALL the removal work themselves. Forget the observation outpost, etc.

The Son'a by themselves could have just come in and announced "hey, you kicked us out once, we're returning the favor now that we've come back stronger," and just beamed the whole village up. And again, they could have shared the particles that came from the collector with the UFP.


Yet again, showing why INS just doesn't make any sense. It's trapped in its own little world of story logic, and can't bear a moment of logical scrutiny from outside of it.
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Old December 13 2012, 06:42 PM   #125
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
Again, it's baffling why the Son'a didn't just tell Starfleet the truth and then have Starfleet let the Son'a come in and do ALL the removal work themselves. Forget the observation outpost, etc.
Because the Federation wouldn't have allowed that to happen, that's the whole point. They found a somewhat corrupt Admiral in Dougherty, schmoozed him and lied to him. Dougherty was willing to destroy the Enterprise to make sure they didn't tell the truth to the Federation council. And Picard told Dougherty that he was certain that the Court Martial would reveal the truth to the public. The Son'a didn't tell the Federation the truth, and Dougherty didn't tell Starfleet or the Enterprise the truth, because the Federation had the same opinion as Picard on the matter.
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Old December 13 2012, 07:32 PM   #126
BillJ
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Again, it's baffling why the Son'a didn't just tell Starfleet the truth and then have Starfleet let the Son'a come in and do ALL the removal work themselves. Forget the observation outpost, etc.
Because the Federation wouldn't have allowed that to happen, that's the whole point. They found a somewhat corrupt Admiral in Dougherty, schmoozed him and lied to him. Dougherty was willing to destroy the Enterprise to make sure they didn't tell the truth to the Federation council. And Picard told Dougherty that he was certain that the Court Martial would reveal the truth to the public. The Son'a didn't tell the Federation the truth, and Dougherty didn't tell Starfleet or the Enterprise the truth, because the Federation had the same opinion as Picard on the matter.
But doesn't that defeat the whole "it isn't a Federation planet" argument? Either it is or isn't a Federation planet, people can't have it both ways.
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Old December 13 2012, 11:35 PM   #127
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Again, it's baffling why the Son'a didn't just tell Starfleet the truth and then have Starfleet let the Son'a come in and do ALL the removal work themselves. Forget the observation outpost, etc.
Because the Federation wouldn't have allowed that to happen, that's the whole point. They found a somewhat corrupt Admiral in Dougherty, schmoozed him and lied to him. Dougherty was willing to destroy the Enterprise to make sure they didn't tell the truth to the Federation council. And Picard told Dougherty that he was certain that the Court Martial would reveal the truth to the public. The Son'a didn't tell the Federation the truth, and Dougherty didn't tell Starfleet or the Enterprise the truth, because the Federation had the same opinion as Picard on the matter.
But doesn't that defeat the whole "it isn't a Federation planet" argument? Either it is or isn't a Federation planet, people can't have it both ways.



this.


you can't win-either it's an UFP planet and eminent domain applies, or it's NOT an UFP planet and it's not a matter for the UFP to be concerned with.(except as far as they should be rooting for the Son'a because then the UFP will get the magic particles)


In any event, there was NO reason for Picard to involve himself on the Baku side.
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Old December 14 2012, 01:20 AM   #128
The Overlord
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Re: Insurrection

I think the plot and moral dilemma the way it was presented in the film just didn't work. The script needed another draft. The Ba'ku needed to be more sympathetic and the dilemma needed to presented as something more gray.
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Old December 14 2012, 07:35 PM   #129
JarodRussell
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Re: Insurrection

Surely the Federation would interfere if a warp capable civilization tried to exploit the people inside Federation territory, citizen or not.
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Old December 15 2012, 12:10 AM   #130
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Surely the Federation would interfere if a warp capable civilization tried to exploit the people inside Federation territory, citizen or not.

er, why would they?

It would basically be like a civil war in the case of the Baku vs. the Son'a, which the Federation frowns on getting involved in.(remember Picard's "blood feud" comment?)

And why would the UFP offer protection to the Baku when they would benefit much more greatly from the Son'a removing them? Especially since the Baku have nothing to offer the UFP.
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Old December 15 2012, 12:48 AM   #131
R. Star
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Surely the Federation would interfere if a warp capable civilization tried to exploit the people inside Federation territory, citizen or not.

er, why would they?

It would basically be like a civil war in the case of the Baku vs. the Son'a, which the Federation frowns on getting involved in.(remember Picard's "blood feud" comment?)

And why would the UFP offer protection to the Baku when they would benefit much more greatly from the Son'a removing them? Especially since the Baku have nothing to offer the UFP.
Because Picard wanted to get laid. That's really all it came down to.
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Old December 15 2012, 03:34 AM   #132
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Insurrection

The Overlord wrote: View Post
I think the plot and moral dilemma the way it was presented in the film just didn't work. The script needed another draft. The Ba'ku needed to be more sympathetic and the dilemma needed to presented as something more gray.
Or they could have gone back to the original idea, of course that would have probably made the federation look worse though.
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Old December 15 2012, 01:40 PM   #133
JarodRussell
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Re: Insurrection

sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Surely the Federation would interfere if a warp capable civilization tried to exploit the people inside Federation territory, citizen or not.

er, why would they?

It would basically be like a civil war in the case of the Baku vs. the Son'a, which the Federation frowns on getting involved in.(remember Picard's "blood feud" comment?)

And why would the UFP offer protection to the Baku when they would benefit much more greatly from the Son'a removing them? Especially since the Baku have nothing to offer the UFP.
Because good people don't only help those they can profit from.
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Old December 15 2012, 01:58 PM   #134
BillJ
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Surely the Federation would interfere if a warp capable civilization tried to exploit the people inside Federation territory, citizen or not.

er, why would they?

It would basically be like a civil war in the case of the Baku vs. the Son'a, which the Federation frowns on getting involved in.(remember Picard's "blood feud" comment?)

And why would the UFP offer protection to the Baku when they would benefit much more greatly from the Son'a removing them? Especially since the Baku have nothing to offer the UFP.
Because good people don't only help those they can profit from.
But helping the Ba'ku with what even Picard calls a blood feud violates the Prime Directive every bit as much as interfering with a primitive society would.

Once again, you can't pick and choose how to apply a rule on a case-by-case basis. Either the Federation is forbidden from interfering in a society's internal affairs or their not.

Which is it going to be?
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Last edited by BillJ; December 15 2012 at 06:25 PM.
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Old December 15 2012, 05:56 PM   #135
sonak
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Re: Insurrection

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Surely the Federation would interfere if a warp capable civilization tried to exploit the people inside Federation territory, citizen or not.

er, why would they?

It would basically be like a civil war in the case of the Baku vs. the Son'a, which the Federation frowns on getting involved in.(remember Picard's "blood feud" comment?)

And why would the UFP offer protection to the Baku when they would benefit much more greatly from the Son'a removing them? Especially since the Baku have nothing to offer the UFP.
Because good people don't only help those they can profit from.

I don't agree that "good people" would want to help the Baku. The Baku showed every sign of being selfish, self-absorbed, and closed-minded. They stumbled upon a resource which could have helped billions and chose to keep it a secret to continue to benefit from it themselves. They exiled the Son'a off the ENTIRE PLANET, knowing what that meant to them, even though they were only a small group, and could have settled somewhere else. They adopt an attitude of smug superiority toward those who don't agree with their pacifist, Luddite lifestyle. And a vastly greater good would come from removing them so that billions can benefit from the medical advances.


And even apart from all that, it's not UFP policy to get involved in internal disputes. Why would the UFP help the Baku when they wouldn't lift a finger to help others with much BETTER cases for intervention, like the Bajorans? You're changing the argument now because you know there's no way out of the choice: either it's a Federation planet and the Baku get removed by the Federation, or it's not, and they get removed by another power.

Either way, the Baku get removed once they get discovered. There's just no reason, save for the one in Picard's pants, to get involved in helping the Baku here.(except as far as helping them resettle. They could offer help in resettling the Baku on another planet. And then make rude gestures at them while they leave).
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