RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,560
Posts: 5,513,979
Members: 25,146
Currently online: 535
Newest member: TM2-Megatron

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 12 2012, 05:52 PM   #16
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

anh165 wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post

Ok so if Khan gets woken up from suspended animation by a crew who has very little idea what he was all about, what exactly does Khan acquire that makes him a 'one man weapon of mass destruction'? As he wasn't so in Space Seed - even if he captured the Enterprise, which could easily be neutralised by other starfleet ships.

A one man weapon of mass destruction - that is one heck of a billing to someone who could have easily been so in the original time line.
Khan gets his hands on a weapon that can destroy plants. For the sake of argument lets call it the "Genesis Wave".
The genesis device is one single torpedo which did not exist until around 20+ years after the events of TOS.

And again, even if it isn't genesis, but some other device or superpower of great magnitude existed in the 2250's, surely this would have happened in the original time line.
It still answers your question. TOS villain gets hold of a WMD making him more threatening than he was in TOS.
anh165 wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post
anh165 wrote: View Post

It would have to be some clever bit of writing to logically connect the actions of Nero to the rise of someone of such danger.
You mean like how Kruge was connected to Khan?
Kruge is just a Klingon commander who wanted Genesis, if Khan never got his hands on Genesis leading to the accidental formation of a new planet, Kruge would just have gone on about doing other things - he would still be a klingon commander, he wouldn't be anymore powerful or threatening.
It still answers your question. Villain from movie III is connected to villain from movie II by plot device from movie II.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2012, 06:06 PM   #17
anh165
Commander
 
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
It still answers your question. TOS villain gets hold of a WMD making him more threatening than he was in TOS.
It doesn't - because that 'WMD' would have existed in the original timeline, any 'evil' character from TOS would have gotten hold of it and tried to cause trouble, the alternative time line angle is not needed to justify its existence.

Secondly, that 'WMD' is deemed to be more threatening than a 24th century romulan super ship commanded by a crazed romulan armed with red matter.
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2012, 06:20 PM   #18
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

anh165 wrote: View Post
Santa Kang wrote: View Post
It still answers your question. TOS villain gets hold of a WMD making him more threatening than he was in TOS.
It doesn't - because that 'WMD' would have existed in the original timeline, any 'evil' character from TOS would have gotten hold of it and tried to cause trouble, the alternative time line angle is not needed to justify its existence.
We've no idea what WMDs exist in either Universe. Very few WMDs have been known to our heroes until they (and we) first encounter them. The villain and the WMD can both be brand new or only one or the other can be.

Secondly, that 'WMD' is deemed to be more threatening than a 24th century romulan super ship commanded by a crazed romulan armed with red matter.
Is it?
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2012, 11:28 PM   #19
Ghost of Christmas Past
Captain
 
Ghost of Christmas Past's Avatar
 
Location: in a retrogradeloop
View Ghost of Christmas Past's Twitter Profile
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

anh165 wrote: View Post
And why wasn't such a villain, device, power not encountered and threatened Earth in the original TOS time line?

Because the original TOS timeline was a Cold War timeline. Mass destruction was threatened by other "states"-- Romulans, Klingons, even the Borg. The "Abramsverse" timeline is a post-9/11 timeline, in which countries do indeed go to war with individuals, and are endangered by them. I think you can even see that in the imagery of the trailer.
__________________
deep space is my dwelling place the stars my destination
Ghost of Christmas Past is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 02:30 AM   #20
Robert_T_April
Captain
 
Robert_T_April's Avatar
 
Location: Yesterday's Enterprise
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

Franklin wrote: View Post
SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
The synopsis spoke of a threat from within.
Nero destroyed several starships as if they were nothing, destroyed Vulcan and threatened Earth directly.
Maybe that caused some starfleet members (Weller and his buddies) to start asking for less exploration and peaceful missions and a move towards more aggressiveness and militarization.
Enter Cumberbatch, who is used by those factions to spread even more terror and force even those who still view starfleet as a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada to change their views.
Could be. Could also be an atmosphere where some hawks in Starfleet see a chance to marginalize the Klingons. After all, Nero destroyed 47 of their ships. They have to be substantially weakened.
Probably the most unrealistic part of Star Trek was the destruction of 47 Klingon ships. Not to change the subject but, that just didn't make sense. After Nero was imprisoned, why didn't the Klingons dismantle his ship?
Robert_T_April is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 02:40 AM   #21
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

Robert_T_April wrote: View Post
After Nero was imprisoned, why didn't the Klingons dismantle his ship?
That's a whole can of works right there that has been debated constantly these past three years. A recent issue of IDW's ongoing series even made a joke about it. Although IDW also attempted to explain it with their Nero series back in 2009. The less said about that explanation, the better. It involves the Borg and V'Ger. Seriously.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 02:41 AM   #22
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

Robert_T_April wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
The synopsis spoke of a threat from within.
Nero destroyed several starships as if they were nothing, destroyed Vulcan and threatened Earth directly.
Maybe that caused some starfleet members (Weller and his buddies) to start asking for less exploration and peaceful missions and a move towards more aggressiveness and militarization.
Enter Cumberbatch, who is used by those factions to spread even more terror and force even those who still view starfleet as a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada to change their views.
Could be. Could also be an atmosphere where some hawks in Starfleet see a chance to marginalize the Klingons. After all, Nero destroyed 47 of their ships. They have to be substantially weakened.
Probably the most unrealistic part of Star Trek was the destruction of 47 Klingon ships. Not to change the subject but, that just didn't make sense. After Nero was imprisoned, why didn't the Klingons dismantle his ship?
That's why I just ignore that subplot and assume that Nero spent the 25 years between blowing up the Kelvin and capturing Spock fixing the Narada and building missiles.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 08:51 AM   #23
Enterprise is Great
Rear Admiral
 
Enterprise is Great's Avatar
 
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

Robert_T_April wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
The synopsis spoke of a threat from within.
Nero destroyed several starships as if they were nothing, destroyed Vulcan and threatened Earth directly.
Maybe that caused some starfleet members (Weller and his buddies) to start asking for less exploration and peaceful missions and a move towards more aggressiveness and militarization.
Enter Cumberbatch, who is used by those factions to spread even more terror and force even those who still view starfleet as a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada to change their views.
Could be. Could also be an atmosphere where some hawks in Starfleet see a chance to marginalize the Klingons. After all, Nero destroyed 47 of their ships. They have to be substantially weakened.
Probably the most unrealistic part of Star Trek was the destruction of 47 Klingon ships. Not to change the subject but, that just didn't make sense. After Nero was imprisoned, why didn't the Klingons dismantle his ship?
Since the Nero in Klingon prison scenes were deleted there's no reason to hold them canon. So no problem. Nero was doing something else.
__________________
JJverse Star Trek...ROCKED on May 17, 2013 and beyond!
Enterprise is Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 10:09 AM   #24
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Distant Thunder
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

But still destroyed 47 Klingon ships.
__________________
Do you know what this is? What this means?
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 12:39 PM   #25
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

anh165 wrote: View Post
If we re-call all the TOS enemies that Kirk & Crew encountered - they were all defeated within 1-2 episodes with almost no implication of complete doom for Earth/Starfleet otherwise.

A bit of team work, use of wits, blue phaser beams or even some kirk-fu subdued any threat, land or in space.

In this alternative timeline, what could possibly give the mysterious TOS era villain such chops to be a bigger threat than the future Romulan Nero posed?

And why wasn't such a villain, device, power not encountered and threatened Earth in the original TOS time line?
Just one year before this movie starts, the Federation lost one of their founding members (Vulcan), 7 starships, thousands of officers. They're vulnerable, and so any number of intergalactic oppertunists are going to be seeing now as their chance to strike. Also, the Klingons are no doubt pissed and reeling after they lost 47 ships.

In an interview to promote the Star Trek Ongoing comic, Mike Johnson likened the events of Star Trek to the temporal butterfly flapping its wings, and Into Darkness as the resulting tornado.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 02:41 PM   #26
anh165
Commander
 
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Just one year before this movie starts, the Federation lost one of their founding members (Vulcan), 7 starships, thousands of officers. They're vulnerable, and so any number of intergalactic oppertunists are going to be seeing now as their chance to strike. Also, the Klingons are no doubt pissed and reeling after they lost 47 ships.

In an interview to promote the Star Trek Ongoing comic, Mike Johnson likened the events of Star Trek to the temporal butterfly flapping its wings, and Into Darkness as the resulting tornado.
Well this would require some very intricate story writing to justify.

We already know the villain is motivated by 'vengence' and he is billed by the official synopsis as a one man weapon of mass destruction.

Somehow in this time line, you have someone who is determined to destroy Starfleet/Earth and has the means to do so.

That means is from technology or some super power which never came about in the original time line and even if such power was undiscovered in the original time line, over 100 years elapsed in the trek franchise - plenty of time for this threat to manifest itself there.

I can understand the events caused by Nero going back in time leading to a character suddently having a motive - it is just the acquistion of power that gives him such an edge that is puzzling.
anh165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2012, 07:26 PM   #27
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Whoever the villain is - why now big 'threat' to Starfleet?

He may have had the powers but no motive in Trek Prime. Or mayne he lacks powers at all, and Cumberbatch simply meant he was extremely gifted at manipulation and hand-to-hand combat, and simply lacked the oppertunity. He may be the background Harrison from The Original Series, who lived a content and unspectacular life in the original timeline. We don't know enough about the character or why he's doing what he's doing to judge just yet.

I'll say this - if he is an awesome force with a grudge against the Federation and a long lifespan and there's no good reason why he didn't act out against them in the prime timeline, I look forward to reading how the post-Nemesis Next Generation crew deal with him in the novels!
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.