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Old December 12 2012, 03:41 PM   #61
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Sorry 'bout this all, Bob, I just need to get this out of my system...

And that system has navigation elements in it. It is relevant since we'd expect to see navigation elements on that display.
Why would we expect such a thing? Our heroes aren't interested in navigation in the slightest. They are wrestling helm control back from M-5. If this requires opening a box labeled "Helm plus stuff", and the stuff happens to include navigation, so be it. But what we really expect to see here is systems allowing our heroes to point the ship's bow in the desired direction. Be they manual or automatic (and preferably, of course, both), they have every right to feature all the elements of steering, including the machinery responsible for the act itself.

There are no examples of steering the ship with adjusting the power of one warp engine to cause a turn, as you allude to.
There's a pretty clear reason why I so allude. It's a way in which ships are steered in real life. We have no data on how ships are steered in Star Trek. Here, pieces fall effortlessly in place if we assume ships in Star Trek are steered the same way ships in real life are. I cannot fathom why you would so desperately resist the pieces falling in place...

It's not as if

a) you would have a competing model you could point at as being evident on screen and therefore invalidating this model, or
b) canon aside, there would be something wrong with this model per se, or another fictional model would be superior per se, or
c) something would be gained by arguing that Chekov cannot be looking at a diagram featuring the warp propulsion system when looking for ways to influence where the ship warps.

warp "steering" appears to have nothing to do with the warp engines
Based on what? None of the dialogue bits you quoted suggest anything one way or another. If the ship moves at warp, it is being steered by warp steering (except perhaps when superentities make her fly in circles); if it does not, it is not being steered by warp steering. Dialogue never dwells on either situation, and juxtaposing one situation's helm dialogue with another's warping dialogue won't help.

Since they re-use that display it is unlikely to have any "helm and navigational control circuit" status since it would show the dead state.
Naah. It would show the system, with "dead" and "live" differentiated by minor things we can ignore, just like we ignore most of the (lack of) graphical detail in Star Trek. Having this diagram visible 24/7 poses no problem whatsoever, regardless of what it is supposed to describe, as long as it describes part of the hero starship (rather than something they only visit that one week).

It is rather fortunate that Chekov looked down at the buttons and never looked back at that display before confirming with Spock which removes the diagram from play as containing control circuit information.
Makes no sense. You would now need to prove that

a) part of what Chekov works on is irrelevant to what he is doing, and
b) there is something to be gained from the diagram not being relevant to Chekov's task.

The first claim is absurd, while the second calls for some pretty hefty explaining. Why do you so desperately wish for Star Trek to not make sense?

In this case, it require more inventing for us to put control circuits into that diagram and then more inventing to why Chekov doesn't look back up at it again after checking some buttons to confirm that the circuits are dead.
Much more easily done than trying to explain why Chekov would be watching hard(ware) porn during working hours.

Oh, well. Display shows Chekov that items A, F and J need to be checked. Chekov checks those specific items, namely their associated switches, and observes their status, then reports this to Spock. No need for him to look back at the display. There. Feel any better?

Timo Saloniemi
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Old December 12 2012, 09:32 PM   #62
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
"Sorry 'bout this all, Bob, I just need to get this out of my system..."
Since I brought this engineering station display into the debate, I'm the one responsible. Knock yourself out but make sure you don't overheat (darn, that's the engineering station display we only saw in "The Corbomite Maneuver" )

Bob
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Old December 12 2012, 09:55 PM   #63
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Is "Warp Engine Room aft" the same as "in the saucer"? Because that's the only place the "The Ultimate Computer" engine room fit can be due to that long curving hallway they used so prominently in the episode. That would put at least one Season 2 style engine room in the primary hull."
No, not necessarily. I addressed the issue of reducing corridor radius in theory # 4 in the introduction to my parallel thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=195496

Add to this we have seen circular corridors in the engineering hull in "Dagger of the Mind", "The Doomsday Machine", "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within"), therefore it has to be equally possible to have the corridor leading to the engineering room in "The Ultimate Computer" in the engineering hull, too.

Bob
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Old December 12 2012, 11:42 PM   #64
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Is "Warp Engine Room aft" the same as "in the saucer"? Because that's the only place the "The Ultimate Computer" engine room fit can be due to that long curving hallway they used so prominently in the episode. That would put at least one Season 2 style engine room in the primary hull."
No, not necessarily. I addressed the issue of reducing corridor radius in theory # 4 in the introduction to my parallel thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=195496
If you're adjusting the radius then you probably won't have any issues.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Add to this we have seen circular corridors in the engineering hull in "Dagger of the Mind", "The Doomsday Machine", "Mudd's Women" and "The Enemy Within"), therefore it has to be equally possible to have the corridor leading to the engineering room in "The Ultimate Computer" in the engineering hull, too.
Well yes and no. The big difference between those episodes and "The Ultimate Computer" is the long continuous tracking shot down that corridor. The other episodes show segments of the corridor at a time.
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Old December 13 2012, 12:36 AM   #65
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
Sorry 'bout this all, Bob, I just need to get this out of my system...
@Bob, ditto!

Timo wrote: View Post
And that system has navigation elements in it. It is relevant since we'd expect to see navigation elements on that display.
Why would we expect such a thing? Our heroes aren't interested in navigation in the slightest.
But they are looking at a "helm and navigation control" which happens to be what they are trying to disrupt.

Timo wrote: View Post
They are wrestling helm control back from M-5. If this requires opening a box labeled "Helm plus stuff", and the stuff happens to include navigation, so be it. But what we really expect to see here is systems allowing our heroes to point the ship's bow in the desired direction.
And that happens to include navigation. How do our heroes know they successfully pointed the ship in the desired direction? Navigation information and feedback from sensors. What we expect to see from a helm and navigation control system are the points to enter in directional information, navigation feedback, and steering commands to thrusters and throttle commands to the engines.

Timo wrote: View Post
Be they manual or automatic (and preferably, of course, both), they have every right to feature all the elements of steering, including the machinery responsible for the act itself.
For a control system they have every right to show all the control linkages yes. Thruster inputs, sure. Throttle inputs, sure. Dilithium crystal and reactor counts? Hardly.

Timo wrote: View Post
There are no examples of steering the ship with adjusting the power of one warp engine to cause a turn, as you allude to.
There's a pretty clear reason why I so allude. It's a way in which ships are steered in real life.
In real life, we have many ways a ship can be steered.

1. A simple and separate system: Rudders steer the ship while the engines spin propellers to move. Helm and navigation control would show linkages to the rudders and throttle settings to the separate engine system and GPS or some navigation sensors.

2. Or on multiple propeller ships, Rudders steer the ship while the engines spin propellers to move. Helm and navigation control would show linkages to the rudders and throttle settings to the separate engine system and GPS or some navigation sensors. Captain can call the engine room or control throttle settings on individual propellers to augment normal steering.

3. Or on multiple propeller ships, Rudders and side thrusters steer the ship while the engines spin propellers to move. Helm and navigation control would show linkages to the rudders and thrusters and throttle settings to the separate engine system and GPS or some navigation sensors. Captain can call the engine room or control throttle settings on individual propellers to augment normal steering.

And more that I'm just not remembering...

And in real life, control and navigation diagrams don't detail it down to the reactor.

Timo wrote: View Post
We have no data on how ships are steered in Star Trek. Here, pieces fall effortlessly in place if we assume ships in Star Trek are steered the same way ships in real life are. I cannot fathom why you would so desperately resist the pieces falling in place...
With no data, how can you claim that warp engines are used to steer the ship? It could just as very well be thrusters that do the steering and the engines just allow it to float at FTL speeds.

The only pieces we have are "helm and navigation control circuit" and their related elements. There are no warp engine pieces to fall into place.

Timo wrote: View Post
It's not as if

a) you would have a competing model you could point at as being evident on screen and therefore invalidating this model,
Using the warp engines themselves to steer is already invalidated within this same episode. You never did offer up why they couldn't just tweak the warp engines directly to steer the ship.

I do not need to offer up a competing model, only one that severs steering from the warp engines.

Timo wrote: View Post
Based on what? None of the dialogue bits you quoted suggest anything one way or another. If the ship moves at warp, it is being steered by warp steering
If a ship is moving on water with propellers and uses the rudders to steer, it is using the rudders to steer, not the engines. Since we've seen Kirk call to helm to steer and engineering to brake (control speed) they're two separate systems. That is not to say that someone in engineering can't manually override helm control, which is what they did in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and various other episodes. But again, they're overriding helm control. Which goes to the diagram. Helm and navigation control is about steering in all the flight modes, not just the intricacies of the warp engines and reactors.

Timo wrote: View Post
Naah. It would show the system, with "dead" and "live" differentiated by minor things we can ignore, just like we ignore most of the (lack of) graphical detail in Star Trek.
Oh? We sure are not ignoring this minor diagram. We've spent some wordy replies on it

Timo wrote: View Post
Having this diagram visible 24/7 poses no problem whatsoever, regardless of what it is supposed to describe, as long as it describes part of the hero starship (rather than something they only visit that one week).
It should be fun to substitute the dialogue on every scene we see that diagram then. "Captain, the helm and navigation controls are dead and under M5 control."


Timo wrote: View Post
It is rather fortunate that Chekov looked down at the buttons and never looked back at that display before confirming with Spock which removes the diagram from play as containing control circuit information.
Makes no sense. You would now need to prove that

a) part of what Chekov works on is irrelevant to what he is doing, and
He turns on the station which happens to turn on the display. He looks down to check the elements and gets no response. He never looks back up the diagram to confirm that the elements are dead. Therefore, logically, the display had nothing to do with it.

Or a real world situation. "Hey, can you check to see if keyboard is getting any power?" "Sure, let me look down and tap the Num Lock key. Nope, no Num lock light. It's dead Jim, no power."

Timo wrote: View Post
pretty hefty explaining. Why do you so desperately wish for Star Trek to not make sense?
Should I ask the same of you? The one who speaks of "hard(ware) porn" and helm and navigation control systems that shouldn't have any navigation in them?

Timo wrote: View Post
In this case, it require more inventing for us to put control circuits into that diagram and then more inventing to why Chekov doesn't look back up at it again after checking some buttons to confirm that the circuits are dead.
Much more easily done than trying to explain why Chekov would be watching hard(ware) porn during working hours.
I think you've made your argument worse. Now you have 3 things to explain for:

1. How helm and navigation control circuits would fit into that diagram.
2. How Chekov didn't need that diagram to confirm whether a circuit was dead or not.
3. And Chekov's fascination with hard(ware) porn. This is NEW and uhm enlightening :P

Watching the scene, I just need to argue that:

1. Chekov confirmed the control circuits by checking some buttons

Timo wrote: View Post
Oh, well. Display shows Chekov that items A, F and J need to be checked. Chekov checks those specific items, namely their associated switches, and observes their status, then reports this to Spock. No need for him to look back at the display. There. Feel any better?
Yes. Actually, when I watched that scene again (rather than relying on just the transcript and screenshots) and saw he wasn't even paying attention to the diagram it was rather gold.

I hope you feel better too.
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Old December 13 2012, 12:04 PM   #66
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Well yes and no. The big difference between those episodes and "The Ultimate Computer" is the long continuous tracking shot down that corridor. The other episodes show segments of the corridor at a time."
While it is true that the Season One episodes only show segments of the circular corridor we do know the corridor layout from the studio set plans but even separated circular corridor pieces scattered throughout the engineering hull will inevitably look odd, lost and out of place.

You and I have illustrated two different approaches in our "blueprinting" TOS Enterprise projects as it is inevitable to do some "tweaking" to resolve the issue (unless we assume the Enterprise to be considerably longer than 1,080' and larger which appears to be an option neither you or I are pursuing):

A) straighten the corridors to make these fit and look better in the engineering hull
or
B) reduce the corridor radius to fit these in the engineering hull

Obviously I prefer option B because it is the dominant nature of a circular corridor (regardless of radius) that sections of such a corridor disappear from your field of vision as you (or the camera) moves along.

And the movement of Kirk, Spock and McCoy at the beginning of "Journey to Babel" suggests passage trough two circular corridor segments (parallel to one another, same pieces of the studio set) that must have a different radius unless we assume these two circular corridors to connect with one another and form a larger corridor with the basic shape of a "?" (which, IMHO, would look extremely odd and out of place in the saucer hull).

Bob
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Old December 13 2012, 02:18 PM   #67
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

I think either approach is viable. I was just pointing out that with short segments, not all of the long corridor is visible and thus you have flexibility in determining what is beyond the camera sight line. It wouldn't be much different as what you wrote in another post where you suggest the cathedral to be not present in the "The Immunity Syndrome" engine room because it is not visible to the camera:
"Moreover, the momentary loss of inertial dampers both on the bridge and in this engine room suggested a ‘cathedral’ facing forward to the bow (however, it’s obscured by the GNDN “transformers” so one might take this as an excuse to be looking at a twin engine room with a cathedral facing aft / stern instead)."
Which would probably be the same approach as well - if it is not visible in all circumstances, then there is flexibility
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Old December 13 2012, 10:59 PM   #68
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"I think either approach is viable. I was just pointing out that with short segments, not all of the long corridor is visible and thus you have flexibility in determining what is beyond the camera sight line."
I'm a strong supporter of this approach, but don't see how this will help with the short circular corridor segments in the engineering hull:

The corridor segments in front of the window cabins port and starboard (Kirk, Mudd, McCoy) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/42om8cmlx...02.2%20001.jpg
have a circular nature, the corridor(s) towards the stern of the Hangar Deck have a circular nature and by the time you overlay all these decks with circular corridor segments you may as well go for full circle corridors.

I also have to add that the corridors in front of Kirk's and Janice's quarters on Engineering Deck 12 are equally long as the one from "The Ultimate Computer". In "The Enemy Within" we almost have a perfect camera pan with Evil-Kirk from the turbo lift to the rest of the corridor and Janice's corridor is equally long if we add the visual information of "Janice's corridor" from "The Enemy Within" to the one from "Charlie X".

Bob
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Old December 15 2012, 01:24 AM   #69
Mytran
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

[QUOTE=Robert Comsol;7391710]
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
And the movement of Kirk, Spock and McCoy at the beginning of "Journey to Babel" suggests passage trough two circular corridor segments (parallel to one another, same pieces of the studio set) that must have a different radius unless we assume these two circular corridors to connect with one another and form a larger corridor with the basic shape of a "?" (which, IMHO, would look extremely odd and out of place in the saucer hull).
Out of place maybe,but not without precedent (well, in the same episode anyway). When Kirk has his fight with the Andorian, there is an odd cut near the end when Kirk delivers his final knockout knee-to-the-head:



See that? The corridor curves clockwise in relation to Kirk from one shot, but anticlockwise from the other shot! In other words, we end up with a corridor shaped (more or less) like this:



And this is in "Deck 5, near my (Kirk's) quarters!" Where on earth might this perculiar corridor segment fit?

As for Kirk, Spock & McCoy's trip through the hallways at the start of the episode, I always assumed that the second corridor sequence was some distance away from the first, probably inthe secondary hull as they made their way towards the Hangar Deck. Certainly they do pass a sign directing them back toward the "Transporter Section" which (as you've suggested elsewhere) is likely to be in the same hull as the Shuttlebay.
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Old December 15 2012, 09:33 AM   #70
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Mytran wrote: View Post
"As for Kirk, Spock & McCoy's trip through the hallways at the start of the episode, I always assumed that the second corridor sequence was some distance away from the first, probably inthe secondary hull as they made their way towards the Hangar Deck. Certainly they do pass a sign directing them back toward the "Transporter Section" which (as you've suggested elsewhere) is likely to be in the same hull as the Shuttlebay."
The DP of "Journey to Babel" definitely made some odd choices.
The scene you're describing, IMHO, takes place in the saucer because next we cut down to the security detail in front of the Hangar Deck and witness Sarek's shuttle landing, giving our triumvirate plenty of time to finally arrive in the engineering hull.

Another corridor oddity is the strange shot of the circular corridors in "The Alternative Factor" (Lazarus strolling around). Judging by the editing he walks through an "H" corridor assembly where the upper and lower edges of the "H" are bent outwards. Maybe a corridor connecting two adjacent corridor circles.

Bob
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Old December 15 2012, 11:32 AM   #71
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I also have to add that the corridors in front of Kirk's and Janice's quarters on Engineering Deck 12 are equally long as the one from "The Ultimate Computer". In "The Enemy Within" we almost have a perfect camera pan with Evil-Kirk from the turbo lift to the rest of the corridor and Janice's corridor is equally long if we add the visual information of "Janice's corridor" from "The Enemy Within" to the one from "Charlie X".
My initial observations regarding Janice's quarters are:
"The Enemy Within"
1. Kirk's exit from turbo lift and short walk to Janice's quarters doesn't give any strong indication of curvature or length due to how tight the camera is on Kirk. No zoom out to give us a full picture.
2. Janice entering her quarters we see the hallway outside has a slight curvature at the floor where two wall segments meet.
3. Janice's cabin has a slight curvature based on the interior shots of walls
4. Where Fisher is calling the bridge and is attacked by Evil-Kirk is in a curved hallway, but where it is relative to Janice's cabin is unknown due to cut between him running to get help and Kirk exiting to chase after him.

"Charlie X"
1. camera shot outside quarters panning left to right only shows a short segment (the one that starts at her door to the grill with pipes where Charlie is).
2. camera shot inside quarters through door show wall on other side.
3. we don't know if Janice is a new cabin or stayed in the one from "The Enemy Within".

If we assume that Janice's cabin is in both episodes, the total length of the corridor is about 2/3rd the length of the S1 curved corridor set (which is about 1/2 the length of the S2 curved corridor set. I'll put together a map like Mytran has to better illustrate it this weekend.
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Old December 16 2012, 12:30 PM   #72
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

May I humbly suggest we continue the corridor discussion in the 'official' "circular corridors in the engineering hull" thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=195496


Bob
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Old December 17 2012, 02:08 AM   #73
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
May I humbly suggest we continue the corridor discussion in the 'official' "circular corridors in the engineering hull" thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=195496


Bob
Edit: Response posted in your thread. Basically it confirms that the visible corridors outside of Rand's quarters are not close to as the one seen in "The Ultimate Computer".

Also, posted a copy in my thread (#638) since it is relevant to what I'm working on as well

Last edited by blssdwlf; December 17 2012 at 02:21 AM.
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Old February 18 2013, 01:38 PM   #74
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Back to the original topic I accidentally discovered an engine room oddity last night which I hadn't noticed earlier.

If we really take a good and close look at the dilithium crystal converter assembly housing on the engine room floors, we'll notice that the two barrel thingies not only have different sizes but it also appears that you can alternately remove the top hatch of one of these barrels and park it on top of the other one.

I had assumed this was one large and compact prop but apparently my assumption was wrong.

If we assume that the smaller barrel is always the closest one to the "cathedral" (i.e. ship's battery, IMHO now) and that's the "warp drive engine room", then there is something different with the engine rooms from "Journey to Babel" an "Elaan of Troyius".

I think I had suggested earlier in this thread that the scenes in these two engine rooms take place in the forward main sensor-deflector engine room.

Bob

P.S. It appears that for the Constellation's engine room they had moved the entire floor casing around 180° to present it in JB and ET style.
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; February 18 2013 at 01:56 PM.
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Old February 18 2013, 01:55 PM   #75
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

That's an excellent find Bob!

Now I'm going to have to check out the other engine rooms. Another tell-tale sign is the button at the top of the barrels (or the cylinder caps). The smaller diameter barrel the button is indented in while the larger diameter barrel the button protrudes up.

So the smaller barrel faces the cathedral in "Is there in truth..." and it faces the opposite direction in "Elaan of Troyius". The dilithium assembly in both cases still faces the control panel wall.

Edit: "The Immunity Syndrome" with the backward facing engine room has the larger barrel facing away from the cathedral...

Last edited by blssdwlf; February 18 2013 at 02:08 PM.
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